<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Warning! Long post ahead. For cliparts that are on our site versus on theirs, I think we can safely see what ones came first. For instance, FreePublicDomainwebsite - Jaguar - 2008/03/26 05:54 OCAL - Jaguar derived from there - 2010-06-16 00:37:00 In this case, the uploader said the original came from there. It clearly has it's origins in a site that does not understand what Public Domain is. Therefore, we cannot trust the origins of that clipart either. (It could be a scan from a Mink blanket for all we know.) This is not questioning the integrity of the author, but the integrity of the clipart itself. If you give a link to that blue guitar, we can figure out "which came first." And, yes, there may be alot of clipart to hide. I'm not concerned with how many cliparts there will be to hide, what matters now, is that we do the right thing for OCAL. If I find a clipart that breaks copyright in anyway, or is suspected to come from an "unclean source" I am obligation by my understanding, of what Public Domain means, to remove that "unclean" clipart from the Library. To do any less will pollute the usefulness of OCAL, and break users trust. As a user of clipart, it does not matter to me where the clipart comes from. As a user of clipart, I don't care. It's all public domain. As a Librarian, or a custodian of Open Clipart Library, I must care. OCAL cannot have "Unclean Public Domain" works. To include "Unclean Public Domain" works in the library, affects the trustworhtiness of the entirety of the Library. If you cannot trust that ONE clipart is clean in the Open Clipart Library, how many others can you trust TO BE clean? Therefore, as a librarian, I must remove the "unclean" clipart, so that people can trust OCAL to a greater extent. It matters where the source of a clipart is from. If your blue guitar is from OCAL, then you can be "pretty sure" it is Public Domain. If it is from FreeClipartNow, you might want to reconsider using it, because it might not be in the public domain, when you consider they have Donald Duck there under a Fair Use clause. DDuck IS NOT Public Domain, and should not be on that site as it claims. Fair Use is not Public Domain, no matter how someone might try to interpret PD. He's a known, copyrighted or trademarked drawn character. In no way is he Public Domain, and just by including the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use">Fair Use </a>thing, makes FreeClipartNow's entire collection unreliable. It's only logical. It's the path OCAL must walk if it is to remain true to Public Domain. Otherwise we become just like any other image hosting service. I am passionate about trust, and about accuracy, and honesty. This is why I do and say the things I do. Because I care about OCAL. For OCAL to be honest to it's Phrases : <dl> <dt><a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/"><img alt="Public Domain" src="cid:part1.02060908.07090802@gmail.com"></a></dt> </dl> The actual clipart content on open clipart library is Public domain <dl> <dt><a href="http://openclipart.org/"><img alt="Open ClipArt Library" src="cid:part2.08030400.04090109@gmail.com"></a></dt> <dt>Open Clipart Library the best place for free Public Domain vector graphics</dt> </dl> I can do no less than make it the best place out there, by removing clipart that is not Public Domain or has too much "risk" involved. A library, with no restrictions, with 99% trust rate? That is worth more than my weight in diamonds my friend. I want to see OCAL grow, and I want to see it last longer than I will. There is a valuable thing in OCAL and I don't want to see it become, "Just another clipart site." As for the "caring about restrictions" as a user, you don't have to care. You can use any Public Domain clipart library you want to. As a user, I don't care where Public Domain clipart comes from, since I can use it in my designs. As a librarian of OCAL I have to care, because they have asked us not to upload clipart from their site onto ours. I see no other interpretation for "competitive venture". The fact is, we are a competitive venture. And we are trying to be THE best clipart site on the web. So I respect their request as a "sister site", hope one day they will remove that silly exception so that we can share freely together, and I leave their stuff alone. I will not, however, remove clipart that was on OCAL first. I'm not offended Jarod. I'm glad that you decided to speak up. It brings more understanding to me, and to our readers. I learnt more about myself and why I'm doing this by talking to you, so I thank you. I do think I'm right though and I will defend my stance until you can show me that I should change my mindset. These kinds of discussions are where actual copyright lawyers would be useful, because they could tell me where I'm misunderstaning something or being too conservative. As it is, I can only go off the experiences of others, and my internal gut feelings on what is right and wrong in these situations. I err on the side of caution, because I value OCAL's trustworthiness, more than any amount of work I am making for myself. And at the end of the day, my hiding these things can be unhidden, if need be. I'm not the only Librarian out there. :-) Cheers Chovynz On 16/06/2010 9:10 p.m., Jarod Russel wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:4C189500.3060600@gmx.de" type="cite"> <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> Fact is that if the majority or at least Jon decides not to allow images that appear on freeclipartnow, there is a lot of cliparts to hide. If you look through there archives you will find quite a few cliparts that are already a long time on OCAL. Just the other day I used a blue bass guitar I found on OCAL for a design and freeclipartnow has the same image in their collection. PD clearly states that there are no rights whatsoever. Meaning also no rights to make restrictions. Otherwise those images are not PD. It is most likely that the owner has no clue and probably has not even made any of the images himself, rather than collecting pd works. Therefore he has no right to make restrictions, why should anybody, whether it is me or OCAL care about those restrictions then? I see things said like "safe PD". There is no such thing. There are no different ways of public domain. Nothing should stop members of OCAL to upload these cliparts if they are true pd, and not like we have seen it here often, uploaded without understanding what pd is. For OCAL the main point should be to figure out whether the clipart is PD or not. Everything else like where it comes from or which sites the clipart can be found on does not matter. Something said on the end. If I seem to be rude or offending to anyone, be assured I do not mean to. I try to make myself clear as good as possible in english, but sometimes its hard to find the right words or ways to say something. So don't take my words to hard on yourself. Am 16-Jun-10 04:03 PM, schrieb chovynz: <blockquote cite="mid:4C187746.7020308@gmail.com" type="cite"> <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> Yes we did have this issue, but on different clipart. I was just supporting the conclusion that I read from that thread. I think it does matter that other sites restrict use of their stuff. As I said on some other issues, I really don't care, either way, I just want to be sure I'm taking the right actions. I don't like to make this kind of messy "legal" and "moral" decision, so I'll support the decision we come to. I've been trying to pin Jon down on this issue for awhile now for him to make a decision on it, but he keeps dodging. :-) Ultimately it's "his" site, so a decision from him on this would be nice. Do we ignore their Few Exceptions or do we consider their PD free-game (and us viewed as a "bully".) At the moment I think our policy on "safe" PD stops us from using any clipart from sites that make silly exceptions like this, because once you put any requirements on a PD clipart, it's no longer PD. I would like some clarity on this, and I think ultimatelt only the Site Owners (Jon + ?) can decide. We can try to influence them either way. I'm against taking clipart from sites that make exceptions like these. John Olson is against (as far as I understand.) I think Nicubunu might be against, but I'm not sure. Jarod is for "not caring" about their exceptions. Anyone else want to have their say? Cheers Chovynz On 16/06/2010 6:21 p.m., Jarod Russel wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:4C186D64.1080407@gmx.de" type="cite"> <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> Didn't we had this just the other day? If their cliparts are pd than their "Few Exceptions" do not matter, except for the logo and trademark one. Such restrictions are pointless and can be ignored with real pd material. Am 16-Jun-10 02:51 PM, schrieb chovynz: <blockquote cite="mid:4C18664C.7050401@gmail.com" type="cite"> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"> Clipart from <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.freeclipartnow.com">http://www.freeclipartnow.com</a> cannot be accepted. Taken from <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.freeclipartnow.com/termsofuse.php">http://www.freeclipartnow.com/termsofuse.php</a> on 16 June 2010, at 5:46pm "Product Usage All graphics on this site are placed into the Public Domain, which means that you can do almost whatever you wish with it. You can put the clipart into your own drawings and documents without any affect on the copyright or license of your work. Few Exceptions. <ul> <li>Company logos and trademarks can be used under "fair use" policy. More info <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logos">here</a>.</li> <li>You may NOT use any component of our clipart or site content to produce what could be directly or indirectly considered a competitive venture against us.</li> <li>It's not necessary to provide a link back to this site, but it would be greatly appreciated"</li> </ul> Clipart affected. </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> <blockquote cite="mid:4C189500.3060600@gmx.de" type="cite"> <blockquote cite="mid:4C187746.7020308@gmail.com" type="cite"> <blockquote cite="mid:4C186D64.1080407@gmx.de" type="cite"> <blockquote cite="mid:4C18664C.7050401@gmail.com" type="cite"><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.openclipart.org/index.php?pretty=detail/67141"></a> <pre wrap=""><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset> _______________________________________________ clipart mailing list <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:clipart@lists.freedesktop.org">clipart@lists.freedesktop.org</a> <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/clipart">http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/clipart</a> </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset> _______________________________________________ clipart mailing list <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:clipart@lists.freedesktop.org">clipart@lists.freedesktop.org</a> <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/clipart">http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/clipart</a> </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset> _______________________________________________ clipart mailing list <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:clipart@lists.freedesktop.org">clipart@lists.freedesktop.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/clipart">http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/clipart</a> </pre> </blockquote> </body> </html>