<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">2014-05-26 10:04 GMT-04:00 Louis Desjardins <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:louis.desjardins@gmail.com" target="_blank">louis.desjardins@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">2014-05-26 8:39 GMT-04:00 Femke Snelting <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:snelting@collectifs.net" target="_blank">snelting@collectifs.net</a>></span>:<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear Ale, Anders,<br>
<br>
As you can imagine your point of view has come up in the many discussions that lead to the formulation of this document.<br>
<br>
The reason to have examples included, is that experience learns (from many other groups that have done CoCs and/or that have dealt with harassment), that concrete cases are necessary in order for a CoC to work. The argument being that it should be explicit from the start that harassment is a reality and that it should not be the problem of someone that feels harassed to convince others that such behaviour exists. Even when the general tone of the document is constructive, this CoC exists for a reason.<br>
<br>
So while all involved in the drafting of it agreed to have examples, we felt it was not up to us to formulate a list of specific cases. We decided to refer to the timeline of incidents, as it is the only well-documented page on harassment in relevant contexts that we are aware of.<br>
<br>
The LGM-CoC addresses all types of harassment, and not only those that are gender related. While I think the 'geek' and 'feminism' in the url is a detail, I do share your concern that the examples are mainly gender related (it is not true that they are only about harassment against women).<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Hi Femke,</div><div><br></div><div>I think the fact that "the examples are mainly gender related", while the possible behaviors we want to avoid and act upon embraces a wider range of threats, is at the heart of the concerns expressed here.</div>
<div><br></div><div>To sort this out, I would suggest we include a couple more examples that are not gender specific (examples below).</div><div><br></div><div>I don’t know if this would make a consensus but I would hope so.</div>
<div><br></div><div>For one, I feel a bit uncomfortable with that only one link and after having read the comments.</div><div><br></div><div>I also agree that the links should go towards a page we have control over as Simon as pointed it.</div>
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<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
At the end of the day we were more concerned by not having any examples at all, than to have only examples of a limited scope. Of course, if there are other sources that you can suggest, it would be very good to include them.<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>From the Swansea University (UK) we have well written definitions and examples followed by a section about what to do when being harassed or feeling harassed that could inspire us for the "how to deal with issues".</div>
<div><a href="https://www.swan.ac.uk/registry/academicguide/conductandcomplaints/dignityatworkandstudycombatingharassment/1introduction/" target="_blank">https://www.swan.ac.uk/registry/academicguide/conductandcomplaints/dignityatworkandstudycombatingharassment/1introduction/</a> </div>
<div><br></div><div><div>From École Polytechnique de Montréal (English version of the document). Especially the section about definition is of much interest in my view and has the benefit of putting into a simple wording what is harassment without going into all the details. Well worth reading, I think.</div>
<div><a href="http://www.polymtl.ca/sg/docs_officiels/en/1310har3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.polymtl.ca/sg/docs_officiels/en/1310har3.htm</a></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yet another link, from our next year venue, the Toronto University (and sublinks to the PDF file of the Student CoC)</div>
<div><a href="http://www.viceprovoststudents.utoronto.ca/publicationsandpolicies/codeofstudentconduct.htm">http://www.viceprovoststudents.utoronto.ca/publicationsandpolicies/codeofstudentconduct.htm</a></div><div><br></div>
<div>Hope this helps.</div><div><br></div><div>Louis </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br></div><div>From the London School of Economics<br></div><div><a href="http://www.lse.ac.uk/intranet/staff/humanResources/reviewingAndRewarding/promotionAndReview/disciplinaryGrievance/harassment/examplesOfDifferentTypesOfHarassment.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.lse.ac.uk/intranet/staff/humanResources/reviewingAndRewarding/promotionAndReview/disciplinaryGrievance/harassment/examplesOfDifferentTypesOfHarassment.aspx</a><br>
</div><div><br></div><div>The American point of view</div><div><a href="http://www.strategichr.com/shrsweb2/harassment_01.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.strategichr.com/shrsweb2/harassment_01.shtml</a></div><div><br></div>
<div>Some additionnal links: </div>
<div><br></div><div>The Ada Initiative</div><div><a href="https://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/conference-policies/" target="_blank">https://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/conference-policies/</a> </div><div><br></div><div>
The New York University Anti-Harassment Policy</div>
<div><a href="http://www.nyu.edu/about/policies-guidelines-compliance/policies-and-guidelines/anti-harassment-policy-and-complaint-procedures.html" target="_blank">http://www.nyu.edu/about/policies-guidelines-compliance/policies-and-guidelines/anti-harassment-policy-and-complaint-procedures.html</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>Python Software Foundation CoC</div><div><a href="https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/" target="_blank">https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/</a><br></div><div>and</div><div><a href="https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/" target="_blank">https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/</a></div>
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<div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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best,<br>
<br>
<br>
Femke<div><div><br>
<br>
<br>
On 26/05/14 13:06, a.l.e wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
dear femke and all<br>
<br>
first thanks for your work on this document!<br>
<br>
the LGM CoC looks good to me.<br>
<br>
... just one thing...<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
- I agree that the reference to examples was awkwardly phrased and simple is better:<br>
"Some examples: <a href="http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents" target="_blank">http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/<u></u>wiki/Timeline_of_incidents</a>"<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
personally, i would prefer that line to be removed.<br>
<br>
<br>
on the one side, i'm not sure that a list of examples needs to be there. the document seems to be clear enough!<br>
<br>
on the other side, "geek" + "feminism" in the url and the fact that most (if not all) the examples are about women (i could not spot any about any other gender/sexual/skin/religious/<u></u>you name it category that tend to be the target of "incidents"... but i have not read the whole page) does not match the idea that a CoC is there to protect each participant from any other "bad" participant. whether they are geek or not, males or women, or anything else they wish or happen to be.<br>
<br>
<br>
for sure, not a reason to reject the CoC. but -- in my eyes -- a detail that might be worth to be fixed...<br>
but you (plural) might also have very good reasons to keep that link...<br>
<br>
<br>
have a nice day and, again, thanks for the fine document!<br>
a.l.e<br>
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