<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> On 11/19/2011 07:11 PM, Jerome Glisse wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:CAH3drwaFtmdDEpnbLND14tO9BfbsH-dtabHGC7NGS0WsLvd9KA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"> <pre wrap="">On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 12:00 PM, Thomas Hellstrom <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:thellstrom@vmware.com"><thellstrom@vmware.com></a> wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">On 11/19/2011 03:53 PM, Ben Skeggs wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> On Sat, 2011-11-19 at 11:07 +0100, Thomas Hellstrom wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> On 11/19/2011 01:26 AM, Ben Skeggs wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> On Fri, 2011-11-18 at 23:48 +0100, Thomas Hellstrom wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> On 11/18/2011 06:26 PM, Ben Skeggs wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> On Fri, 2011-11-18 at 15:30 +0100, Thomas Hellstrom wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> On 11/18/2011 02:15 PM, Ben Skeggs wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> On Fri, 2011-11-18 at 08:57 +0100, Thomas Hellstrom wrote: </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> Jerome, I don't like this change for the following reasons </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> -snip- </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> One can take advantage of move notify callback but, there are corner case where bind/unbind might be call without move notify being call (in error path mostly). So to make sure that each virtual address space have a consistent view of wether a buffer object is backed or not by system page it's better to pass the buffer object to bind/unbind. </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> As I discussed previously with Jerome on IRC, I believe the move_notify hook is sufficient.  I fixed a couple of issues back with it back when I implemented support for this in nouveau. Jerome did point out two issues however, which I believe can be solved easily enough. The first was that the error path after move_notify() has been called doesn't reverse the move_notify() too, leaving incorrect page table entries.  This, I think, could easily be solved by swapping bo->mem and mem, and re-calling move_notify() to have the driver reverse whatever it did. The second issue is that apparently move_notify() doesn't get called in the destroy path.  Nouveau's GEM layer takes care of this for our userspace bos, and we don't use any kernel bos that are mapped into a channel's address space so we don't hit it.  This can probably be solved easily enough too I expect. Ben. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> OK. I understand. Surely if a move_notify is missing somewhere, that can easily be fixed. It might be good if we can outline how the virtual tables are set up. In my world, the following would happen: 1) Pre command submission: a) reserve bo b) call ttm_bo_validate to set placement. move_notify will tear down any existing GPU page tables for the bo. c) Set up GPU page tables. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Nouveau doesn't do this exactly.  I wanted to avoid having to check if a bo was bound to a particular address space on every command submission. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> It perhaps might be a good idea to revisit this? I think using move_notify to set up a new placement before the data has actually been moved is very fragile and not the intended use. That would also save you from having to handle error paths. Also how do you handle swapouts? </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> I don't see how it's fragile, there's only the one error path after that point that needs to undo it.  And, what *is* the expected use then?  I see it as "tell the driver the buffer is moving so it can do whatever is necessary as a result". Swapouts are a missed case though, indeed. </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> A quick check in c) that the virtual map hasn't been torn down by a move_notify and, in that case, rebuild it would probably be next to free. The virtual GPU mapping would then be valid only after validation and while the bo is fenced or pinned. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> This alone doesn't solve the swapouts issue either unless you're also wanting us to unmap once a buffer becomes unfenced, which would lead to loads of completely unnecessary map/unmaps. Ben. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> I think you misunderstand me a little. The swapout issue should be handled by calling a move_notify() to kill the virtual GPU mappings. However, when moving data that has page tables pointing to it, one should (IMHO) do: 1) Kill the old page tables 2) Move the object 3) Set up new page tables on demand. This is done by TTM for CPU page tables and I think that should be done also for GPU page tables. move_notify() should be responsible for 1), The driver execbuf for 3), and 3) needs only to be done for the particular ring / fifo which is executing commands that touch the buffer. This leaves a clear and well-defined requirement on TTM: Notify the driver when it needs to kill its GPU page tables. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Ok.  This I don't really object to really.  I read the previous mail as that GPU mappings should only exist as long as the buffer is fenced, which would be a ridiculous amount of overhead. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> I agree. What I meant was that the page tables wouldn't be considered valid when the fence had signaled. However that was actually incorrect because they would actually be valid until the next move_notify(). The intention was never to tear down the mappings once the fence had signaled; that would have been pretty stupid. </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap=""> With the latest patch from jerome: Notify the driver when it needs to rebuild it page tables. Also on error paths, but not for swapins because no driver will probably set up GPU page tables to SYSTEM_MEMORY. This is what I mean with fragile, and I much rather see the other approach. Ben, I didn't fully understand why you didn't want to use that approach. Did you see a significant overhead with it. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> Now I'm more clear on what you meant, no, it wouldn't be a lot of overhead.  However, move_notify() was never intended for the use you're proposing now, or the new ttm_mem_reg would never have been being passed in as a parameter... </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> I suppose you're right. Still I think this is the right way to go. Since it has the following advantages: 1) TTM doesn't need to care about the driver re-populating its GPU page tables. Since swapin is handled from the tt layer not the bo layer, this makes it a bit easier on us. 2) Transition to page-faulted GPU virtual maps is straightforward and consistent. A non-page-faulting driver sets up the maps at CS time, A pagefaulting driver can set them up directly from an irq handler without reserving, since the bo is properly fenced or pinned when the pagefault happens. 3) A non-page-faulting driver knows at CS time exactly which page-table-entries really do need populating, and can do this more efficiently. So unless there are strong objections I suggest we should go this way. Even if this changes the semantics of the TTM <-> driver interface compared to how Nouveau currently does things, it means that Jerome's current patch is basically correct and doesn't any longer have any assumptions about SYSTEM memory never being used for virtual GPU maps. Thanks, Thomas. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> I think it's better to let driver choose how it will handle its virtual page table. For radeon i update in move_notify in order to minimize the number of update. I don't want to track if an object have been updated or not against each page table. Of course this add possibly useless overhead to move notify as we might update page table to many time (bo from vram->gtt->system) I think if move notify is properly call once for each effective move driver can do their own dance behind curtain. Cheers, Jerome </pre> </blockquote> Jerome, It's not really what the driver does that is the problem, it's what the driver expects from the driver <-> TTM interface. That's why I'd really like a maintainable interface design before coding patches that makes the interface a set of various workarounds. Enforcing this will also force driver writers to think twice before implementing things in their own way adding another load of ad hoc callbacks to TTM, without a clear specification but with the only purpose to fit a specific driver implementation, so in a way it's our responsibility to future driver writers to try to agree on a simple interface that works well and allows drivers to do an efficient implementation, and that adds a little maintenance burden on TTM. If a future driver writer looks at the Radeon code and replicates it, because he thinks it's state of the art, and then finds out his code breaks because he can't use SYSTEM memory for GPU page tables, or use his own private LRU, or the code breaks with partially populated TTMs and finally finds it's quite inefficient too because it unnecessarily populates page tables, we've failed. This is really the point I'd like to make, but as a side note, I'm not asking you to track each bo against each page table. What I'm asking you is to not populate the page tables in bo_move() but in execbuf / pushbuf. The <big>possibility</big> to track a bo against each page table comes as a nice benefit. /Thomas </body> </html>