2013/6/22 Jerome Glisse <<a href="mailto:j.glisse@gmail.com">j.glisse@gmail.com</a>>: > On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Inki Dae <<a href="mailto:daeinki@gmail.com">daeinki@gmail.com</a>> wrote: >> 2013/6/21 Lucas Stach <<a href="mailto:l.stach@pengutronix.de">l.stach@pengutronix.de</a>>: >>> Hi Inki, >>> >>> please refrain from sending HTML Mails, it makes proper quoting without >>> messing up the layout everywhere pretty hard. >>> >> >> Sorry about that. I should have used text mode. >> >>> Am Freitag, den 21.06.2013, 20:01 +0900 schrieb Inki Dae: >>> [...] >>> >>>> Yeah, you'll some knowledge and understanding about the API >>>> you are >>>> working with to get things right. But I think it's not an >>>> unreasonable >>>> thing to expect the programmer working directly with kernel >>>> interfaces >>>> to read up on how things work. >>>> >>>> Second thing: I'll rather have *one* consistent API for every >>>> subsystem, >>>> even if they differ from each other than having to implement >>>> this >>>> syncpoint thing in every subsystem. Remember: a single execbuf >>>> in DRM >>>> might reference both GEM objects backed by dma-buf as well >>>> native SHM or >>>> CMA backed objects. The dma-buf-mgr proposal already allows >>>> you to >>>> handle dma-bufs much the same way during validation than >>>> native GEM >>>> objects. >>>> >>>> Actually, at first I had implemented a fence helper framework based on >>>> reservation and dma fence to provide easy-use-interface for device >>>> drivers. However, that was wrong implemention: I had not only >>>> customized the dma fence but also not considered dead lock issue. >>>> After that, I have reimplemented it as dmabuf sync to solve dead >>>> issue, and at that time, I realized that we first need to concentrate >>>> on the most basic thing: the fact CPU and CPU, CPU and DMA, or DMA and >>>> DMA can access a same buffer, And the fact simple is the best, and the >>>> fact we need not only kernel side but also user side interfaces. After >>>> that, I collected what is the common part for all subsystems, and I >>>> have devised this dmabuf sync framework for it. I'm not really >>>> specialist in Desktop world. So question. isn't the execbuf used only >>>> for the GPU? the gpu has dedicated video memory(VRAM) so it needs >>>> migration mechanism between system memory and the dedicated video >>>> memory, and also to consider ordering issue while be migrated. >>>> >>> >>> Yeah, execbuf is pretty GPU specific, but I don't see how this matters >>> for this discussion. Also I don't see a big difference between embedded >>> and desktop GPUs. Buffer migration is more of a detail here. Both take >>> command stream that potentially reference other buffers, which might be >>> native GEM or dma-buf backed objects. Both have to make sure the buffers >>> are in the right domain (caches cleaned and address mappings set up) and >>> are available for the desired operation, meaning you have to sync with >>> other DMA engines and maybe also with CPU. >> >> Yeah, right. Then, in case of desktop gpu, does't it need additional >> something to do when a buffer/s is/are migrated from system memory to >> video memory domain, or from video memory to system memory domain? I >> guess the below members does similar thing, and all other DMA devices >> would not need them: >> struct fence { >> ... >> unsigned int context, seqno; >> ... >> }; >> >> And, >> struct seqno_fence { >> ... >> uint32_t seqno_ofs; >> ... >> }; >> >>> >>> The only case where sync isn't clearly defined right now by the current >>> API entrypoints is when you access memory through the dma-buf fallback >>> mmap support, which might happen with some software processing element >>> in a video pipeline or something. I agree that we will need a userspace >>> interface here, but I think this shouldn't be yet another sync object, >>> but rather more a prepare/fini_cpu_access ioctl on the dma-buf which >>> hooks into the existing dma-fence and reservation stuff. >> >> I think we don't need addition ioctl commands for that. I am thinking >> of using existing resources as possible. My idea also is similar in >> using the reservation stuff to your idea because my approach also >> should use the dma-buf resource. However, My idea is that a user >> process, that wants buffer synchronization with the other, sees a sync >> object as a file descriptor like dma-buf does. The below shows simple >> my idea about it: >> >> ioctl(dmabuf_fd, DMA_BUF_IOC_OPEN_SYNC, &sync); >> >> flock(sync->fd, LOCK_SH); <- LOCK_SH means a shared lock. >> CPU access for read >> flock(sync->fd, LOCK_UN); >> >> Or >> >> flock(sync->fd, LOCK_EX); <- LOCK_EX means an exclusive lock >> CPU access for write >> flock(sync->fd, LOCK_UN); >> >> close(sync->fd); >> >> As you know, that's similar to dmabuf export feature. >> >> In addition, a more simple idea, >> flock(dmabuf_fd, LOCK_SH/EX); >> CPU access for read/write >> flock(dmabuf_fd, LOCK_UN); >> >> However, I'm not sure that the above examples could be worked well, >> and there are no problems yet: actually, I don't fully understand >> flock mechanism, so looking into it. >> >>> >>>> >>>> And to get back to my original point: if you have more than >>>> one task >>>> operating together on a buffer you absolutely need some kind >>>> of real IPC >>>> to sync them up and do something useful. Both you syncpoints >>>> and the >>>> proposed dma-fences only protect the buffer accesses to make >>>> sure >>>> different task don't stomp on each other. There is nothing in >>>> there to >>>> make sure that the output of your pipeline is valid. You have >>>> to take >>>> care of that yourself in userspace. I'll reuse your example to >>>> make it >>>> clear what I mean: >>>> >>>> Task A Task B >>>> ------ ------- >>>> dma_buf_sync_lock(buf1) >>>> CPU write buf1 >>>> dma_buf_sync_unlock(buf1) >>>> ---------schedule Task A again------- >>>> dma_buf_sync_lock(buf1) >>>> CPU write buf1 >>>> dma_buf_sync_unlock(buf1) >>>> ---------schedule Task B--------- >>>> qbuf(buf1) >>>> >>>> dma_buf_sync_lock(buf1) >>>> .... >>>> >>>> This is what can happen if you don't take care of proper >>>> syncing. Task A >>>> writes something to the buffer in expectation that Task B will >>>> take care >>>> of it, but before Task B even gets scheduled Task A overwrites >>>> the >>>> buffer again. Not what you wanted, isn't it? >>>> >>>> Exactly wrong example. I had already mentioned about that. "In case >>>> that data flow goes from A to B, it needs some kind of IPC between the >>>> two tasks every time" So again, your example would have no any >>>> problem in case that *two tasks share the same buffer but these tasks >>>> access the buffer(buf1) as write, and data of the buffer(buf1) isn't >>>> needed to be shared*. They just need to use the buffer as *storage*. >>>> So All they want is to avoid stomping on the buffer in this case. >>>> >>> Sorry, but I don't see the point. If no one is interested in the data of >>> the buffer, why are you sharing it in the first place? >>> >> >> Just used as a storage. i.e., Task A fills the buffer with "AAAAAA" >> using CPU, And Task B fills the buffer with "BBBBBB" using DMA. They >> don't share data of the buffer, but they share *memory region* of the >> buffer. That would be very useful for the embedded systems with very >> small size system memory. > > Just so i understand. You want to share backing memory, you don't want > to share content ie you want to do memory management in userspace. > This sounds wrong on so many level (not even considering the security > implication). > > If Task A need memory and then can release it for Task B usage Not true. Task A can never release memory because All task A can do is to unreference dma buf object of sync object. And please know that user interfaces hasn't been implemented yet, and we just have a plan for it as I already mentioned. > that > should be the role of kernel memory management which of course needs > synchronization btw A and B. But in no case this should be done using > dma-buf. dma-buf is for sharing content btw different devices not > sharing resources. > hmm, is that true? And are you sure? Then how do you think about reservation? the reservation also uses dma-buf with same reason as long as I know: actually, we use reservation to use dma-buf. As you may know, a reservation object is allocated and initialized when a buffer object is exported to a dma buf. Thanks, Inki Dae > > Also don't over complicate the vram case, just consider desktop gpu as > using system memory directly. They can do it and they do it. Migration > to vram is orthogonal to all this, it's an optimization so to speak. > > Cheers, > Jerome