can_suspend_to_{x}

[Richard Hughes]

On Sat, 2006-05-06 at 11:55 +0200, Danny Kukawka wrote:
> On Saturday 06 May 2006 10:44, Richard Hughes wrote:
> > On Sat, 2006-05-06 at 10:28 +0200, Danny Kukawka wrote:
> > > On Friday 05 May 2006 22:16, Richard Hughes wrote:
> [...]
> > Yes, but choosing names that one team/developer prefers makes this
> > totally non-uniform across different projects, which is bad for users.
> 
> But you can't force any project to change this and IMO e.g. in case of KDE to 
> change the name of this methodes is a step in the wrong direction because the 
> user don't know what the difference between hibernate and suspend really is 
> (And IMO there also e.g. no good translation for both in german. What is the 
> difference between 'Stromsparmodus' for Suspend and 'Ruhemodus' for 
> Hibernate. They (and for me also the english versions) are not 
> self-explanatory). 

Maybe choose better translations, sorry I'm speak no German.

> > Does it? What if the hibernate action is saving the data to a network
> > share in the case of a diskless workstation?
> 
> Then name it e.g. suspend-to-storage/network or what ever.

No can do, as HAL just needs a generic name that is not implementation
specific.

> > Also, having different names mean developers have to manually remember
> > the association between two forms of terminology.
> >
> > > > I'm sending similar emails to other projects
> > > > as I want to make this as standardised as possible.
> 
> To which projects? I didn't see e.g. a mail on a powersave mailinglist. Only 
> GNOME projects?

Nope, not yet but it's on my list. I'm about 1/3 the way through, but i
have to do this in-between revision slots :-)

> > > > I hope this page can convert some of the wacky/zany/confusing/crazy
> > > > software out there to stick to common names.
> > >
> > > Why should a project change the name of the translations? There are
> > > projects which exist longer than hal/gpm and using s2ram/s2disk. Why
> > > should they change the by their users well known names? I see no
> > > inducement to do this.
> >
> > No, but 95% of the feedback to the mails I've sent has been *very*
> > positive. It seems other people think this need to be cleared up as
> > well.
> 
> Clear up means what? Discuss a common name or use hibernate/suspend? And 
> again: which projects?

Use hibernate and suspend. There's no point starting a flame-fest and
trying to get a new word debated and accepted by all.

> > > > Developing gnome-power-manager (and a chunk of the power management in
> > > > HAL) gives me first-hand experience of the ways users, distros,
> > > > packagers and developers can and do get this wrong.
> > >
> > > Why do you think they do this wrong? For KDE e.g. IMO everybody know
> > > already the terms s2ram/s2disk/standby from klaptop and kpowersave since
> > > a long time. Why should this be wrong and why should they change this?
> >
> > Okay, I asked my mum what the differences between s2ram, s2disk and
> > standby are. She's not a wizz on a computer, but she's certainly no
> > newbie...
> >
> > ...and she didn't have a clue.
> 
> Ask e.g. a KDE user or as Stefan already wrote (on g-p-m list) ask his 7/8 
> years old childs ... they are also not newbies and they know what this mean. 

Then my mum must be less clever than a 7 year old child. She'll be well
chuffed when I tell her that. :-)

The point here, is that a person shouldn't have to understand what RAM
is, and why it's faster to access than disk etc.

> > I'm not saying I'm forcing people to change the names used in software,
> > I'm saying it makes sense to all use the same terminology.
> 
> Which mean the same if you think out your idea. ;-) 

Ohh, I'm just pushing my opinion on other people :-)
If it 'sticks' and a few more projects use common names (and some of the
confusion is reduced) - then - job done.

> > Okay, n/p - but changing key names has been done before and it's trivial
> > to add fallbacks in code that can't depend on newer versions of HAL.
> 
> Maybe, but IMO there is no need. A developer know the difference between this 
> keys and IMO they repesent the information from the kernel interface. And I 
> can't see there suspend/hibernate ... this is IMO more confusing ;-)

Yes, but it's not just developers who query these keys. People having
problems with suspend and hibernate need to know what HAL can do, and I
really don't want to explain to yet another user how s2d == hibernate.

Richard.