[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI (see comment 67)

Tue May 24 22:09:59 UTC 2022

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501

--- Comment #116 from John Mills <jmills59 at yahoo.com> ---
(In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #115)
> (In reply to Rafael Lima from comment #112)
> > I agree with this point of view. Making the Tabbed UI should be a goal for
> > to be achieved within 1 or 2 years. If we start prioritizing it today, maybe
> > within 2 or 3 main releases we'll be able to make it the default.
> 
> If you want to make this argument, you need to address the objections of
> those of us who are against it. Which you, so far, have not.
> 
> > Maybe we could bring this issue to the ESC so that future grants can be
> > proposed to address Tabbed UI-related bugs and enhancements.

What precisely is wrong taking this proposal to the ESC? Currently is your
suggestion to delay because you have a better proposal for modernisation in the
UI? Or rather you believe that the current status quo is adequate?
> 
> Again, you're speaking as though this has somehow been agreed. On the
> contrary - you should refrain from lobbying the ESC for grant money; that
> would be a misrepresentation of the discussion here.
This is an open discussion that has been open for near 2 years now, with both
sides making their point. Unless there is any overstepping of statutes for TDF
that has been made it is entirely within a member's rights to make a proposal
or is this incorrect?

> 
> (In reply to John Mills from comment #107)
> John, I think in this latest reply you've provided the crux of your
> perspective:
> 
> > The standard lets say is MSO
> 
> Excuse the capital letters, but: THE STANDARD IS NOT MSO, nor should it be.
> "Do like MSO does" may be a reasonable fallback when we have no other
> alternative. But we also know MSO gets some things wrong, UI-wise; and one
> of these things is the switch to ribbons, which is more detrimental than
> beneficial to users.

For businesses and governments worldwide MSO is by far and way above any other
office suite by usage statistics. No other office suite is remotely close to
MSO. I would hazard a guess that pirated usage of MSO is significantly greater
than LibreOffice unfortunately. Your argument about switching to a ribbon being
detrimental is purely subjective. It certainly hasn't hampered their adoption
if you compare usage in 2007 compared to 2022. If MSO was not a de facto
standard then no suites would seek compatibility of UI paradigms or file
formats. Clearly this is not the case. 

> 
> > This is the critical part, the Tabbed UI provides an attractive (certainly
> > on Linux) and familiar interface to users coming from other office suites
> 
> The menus + toolbars provide an attractive and familiar interface to such
> users - as most desktop application software use menus and toolbars, and in
> fact so do half or more of other office suites. I would concede that tabs
> "look more attractive" - you get a larger canvas on which to represent your
> ideas - but they make users fail to notice and find a lot of functionality.
> And a shiny ribbon is  not a good enough reason to make this interface the
> default.

Again a subjective opinion, please provide some rational evidence that users
'fail to notice and find a lot of functionality.'
> 
> > such as MSO, OnlyOffice, Kingsoft, Softmaker to name a few.
> 
> You're naming the ones with tabs, and ignoring the others.

Which are the others you speak of that default to a 'classic' like interface?
Word Perfect, possibly Google docs if you are broadly reaching?
> 
> > if you were looking 50 to 10 years in to the future where do you
> > think the desktop and online office space is going to be? Will there be
> > consolidation? Will the desktop market shrink compared to online? Will MSO
> > still be number one, will new competitors enter the market? The fact is we
> > don't know for certain,
> 
> We know that, 30 years ago, desktop applications were using menu bars and
> toolbars, and 30 years later, they still use menu bars and toolbars, mostly.
> Ribbons are relatively unpopular. Another direction has been "smartphonish"
> interface - no menu bar and a hamburger menu. That's nice for a phone, but
> sucks for the desktop. Chrome, Firefox and Thunderbird have gone in this
> direction (along with using web-page-like dialog replacements - and it has
> been a degradation.

Well I hope we don't see significant hamburger menu like interfaces by default
but they certainly supplement applications now, however I am not talking
specifically about non-office applications. I do not see the relevance of the
menu structure for photoshop or Auto CAD to the applicability of a Ribbon
interface for LibreOffice.
> 
> > but if trends continue then i think there will be an
> > increased online presence and MSO will still be the most popular desktop
> > client.
> 
> if trends continue, then and most applications would still use menu bars and
> toolbars, while Microsoft will try out some more UI which may or may not be
> a good idea.

I am not concerned what most applications use, only what will serve the
adoption of FLOSS Office suites such as LibreOffice. The question is quite
simple does offering a UI similar to MSO by default hinder or help the adoption
of LibreOffice? Does this help users have a better or worse experience?
> 
> > If they don't radically change their UI then the 'ribbon' will be 20
> > + years old at that point and the type of UI used by LO 30 years old. 
> 
> Even older. But also note that if trends continue, there will still be few
> ribbon apps and most free office suites will have menu bars and toolbars,
> not ribbons.

Which free Office suites are they? And do you mean Libre or Gratis? Because if
Gratis you are incorrect, if Libre then LibreOffice, Calligra, OpenOffice,
however this is by all accounts 'dead now.'
> 
> > Just going by those numbers the current default UI paradigm used by LO will
> > be hopelessly out of date
> 
> On the contrary. Going by those numbers LO will continue to be in vogue as
> it is today. Of course, things may turn out differently: It may be the case
> that in a decade or two, most apps are dumbed-down to smartphone-style
> interfaces. If that happens, we should still not go down the same path.

In vogue more than now? Is there projections from TDF that keeping the current
UI/UX will bolster the adoption of a given time period such as 5 years?
Difficult to say I know but your thoughts are basically keep the status quo as
it currently exists.
> 
> 
> > [u]nless there is
> > emphasis and resources made available to correct these then nothing will
> > happen and that stagnation is not healthy for the LO application and
> > community in the longer term.
> 
> I hope you're not insinuating that not adopting your UI design preference
> implies stagnation...

I am yes, but it is not my UI preference solely, many people have expressed the
same preference and see the benefit for the LibreOffice project by bringing
more users to the software by using an attractive and familiar interface. UI
however is only one area of stagnation, of course there are other areas in
LibreOffice that have been neglected for many years due to resources.

> > There needs to be some strategic vision for where the UI needs to be
> 
> There is such a strategic vision: menu bar and toolbars. True, it's the
> by-default vision, but to change it, proponents need to make a better
> argument than "people who use MSO are used to it". Which is what I've also
> told Rafael, above.

That is your strategic vision and the current status quo as I said before,
Rafeal makes a valid point. For those that are seeking to grow the LibreOffice
user base through a beautiful and modern Office Suite experience for the end
user these arguments are necessary to have, the discourse is civil and the
points raised deserve to be discussed at a higher level as your right to object
is also.

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