<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 10:31 PM, Cor Nouws <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:oolst@nouenoff.nl" target="_blank">oolst@nouenoff.nl</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Mirek,<br> <br> Mirek M. wrote (18-09-13 22:03)<div class="im"><br> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> OK. And maybe, when visible in the other modules, remove some<br> formatting toolbar?<br> <br> I'm not sure if I said it in this post, but I look at the Properties<br> panel as the replacement for modal dialogs -- like the Inspector in Mac<br> applications. Thus I imagine it not acting as a replacement to the<br> toolbar, but as a supplement.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> I understand that. But the controls on the formatting toolbar act as such too.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not really.<br></div><div>To make myself clear, this is how I see our toolbar: <a href="http://blog.siliconpublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Formats1.png">http://blog.siliconpublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Formats1.png</a><br> </div><div>And this is how I see the Properties panel: <a href="http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/thumb/0/01/CH3_Format_Paragraphs_indents%26spacing.png/500px-CH3_Format_Paragraphs_indents%26spacing.png">http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/thumb/0/01/CH3_Format_Paragraphs_indents%26spacing.png/500px-CH3_Format_Paragraphs_indents%26spacing.png</a><br> <br></div><div>(I'm hoping the toolbars will be streamlined once we have the overflow menu, which is basically a cushion for those who've grown dependent on some of the less useful parts of the toolbar.)<br></div> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="im"><br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> When you're writing, you want your workspace to be clean, uncluttered,<br> so that you can focus on the task at hand. The toolbar serves you quick<br> formatting options, but generally stays out of the way (at least when<br> you remove or streamline and move the Standard toolbar). When you happen<br> to need an advanced formatting option that you rarely use, that's when<br> you show the Properties panel. It shouldn't be on full-time (unless you<br> refuse to use styles and constantly have breaks for using advanced<br> formatting options while creating content; that's not a use case we<br> should encourage, though).<br> Since the user won't be using the panel full-time and since the<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Won't many people have the side bar visible all the time, just as the tool bar?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I hope not.<br>I'd like people to focus on writing their document, not on formatting it.<br><br> </div><div>Of course, it all depends on what the defaults will be.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="im"> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Show/Hide button for the panel should be part of the contextual toolbar<br> itself, it would be good to keep the toolbar visible even when the<br> Properties panel is shown to not disorient the user.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> That is what I mean with my objection: it serves direct formatting :(</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't quite understand you in this context.<br></div><div>I was talking about keeping the toolbar visible when the sidebar is shown.<br> </div><div>That's also important when switching tabs in the Sidebar. It'd be strange to suddenly show the toolbar when going from the Properties panel to the Navigator panel, and it would shift a large portion of the chrome, including the sidebar tabs themselves.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="im"><br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Those ideas for panel behaviour look sound to me. But less important<br> in my view then the items I brought forward .. ;)<br> <br> <br> They're very important to me -- I can't stand the odd duplication we<br> have going on, with two Navigators, two Galleries, and two Style panes.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> I agree that it is important to solve that.<br> But most important is proper use of documents and formatting. Thus I would first focus on improving the use of styles via the side bar.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In that case, the focus should be on improving the Styles panel.<br> See my post under the "LO's styles are more confusing then MSO's (Was Re: some thoughts on the Sidebar)" ux-advise thread for pointers on that.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div class="im"> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> If you're using the Sidebar, you have to launch a separate Navigator in<br> case you need to use two panels at once.<br> And that might be hard to discover how to do, since it's not clear what<br> View -> Navigator or the Navigator icon in the toolbar will do.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> That is nothing different from now :)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right now, we only have one Navigator (and the other dockable panes). We don't have the sidebar, so there's no confusion.<br></div><div> </div> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> And when we talk about our new users: let's pls offer them great style handling :)</blockquote><div><br></div><div>+1 <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div class="im"><br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> As for the Properties panel, I'm hoping it will gain Style dropdowns<br> like those in the toolbar (Kendy's working on this). I see no<br> reason to<br> fill the Properties panel with styles, though, as we already<br> have the<br> Styles panel for that.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> By the way: the styles panel is outdated, ugly, hides information and actions...<br> No problem for me. But how much better could it be if the possibilities in the side bar were used to make that modern etc.<br> (Just see the post of Olivier on ux-list - great idea to work out.)</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Which post do you mean? <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div class="im"><br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for<br> direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a<br> useful way.<br> <br> Despite favoring styles, I wouldn't dismiss the usefulness of<br> hard-formatted bold/italic/underlines -- they're much simpler to apply<br> than styles and they're as easy to replace (using Find and Replace).<br> </blockquote> <br></div> We can't hide the key B and I for the users, alas ;)</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="im"> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> I would love for the font picker and font size picker to be<br> deemphasized, though, given that these two should almost exclusively be<br> applied through paragraph styles.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Should yes. The same for indent, alignment, ... all direct formatting controls on the tool bar and in the side bar.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'd leave at the very least Bold and Italicize untouched. :)<br> </div><div>The other hard formatting controls seem important to me in (re)defining styles, though. (In Google Drive, I first apply hard formatting, then modify a style based on the selection, which automatically applies that style and gets rid of the hard formatting in that selection. That's my preferred workflow for using styles.)<br> </div><div>And, as I said, the Properties panel should have all the direct formatting controls.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div class="im"> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> GMail had fonts under an icon-only drop-down before its redesign. [1]<br> Many mobile word processors do the same [2][3] (although Drive [4] has<br> the text label "Fonts" instead of an icon).<br> I would love for the font picker to use an icon-only drop-down as well.<br> That would not only deemphasize the font picker, it would also emphasize<br> the style picker, which would now be the widest element in the toolbar.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Like that idea as a good step.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If you have a developer willing to work on it, that'd be excellent. :) <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div class="im"> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> I like the idea of seeing a life preview. On the other hand,<br> applying a style and hitting Ctrl-z or the undo button, or the other<br> style when it's not what is wanted, isn't a big deal too.<br> <br> Of course. That's what the Styles panel is for. (That said, that panel<br> should really use single-click for applying styles -- double-click is<br> unnecessarily strenuous.)<br> </blockquote> <br></div> You cannot change that click behaviour without other changes. (And read what I wrote above about that panel...)</blockquote><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">I agree that panel is ugly and outdated.<br></div><div class="gmail_quote"> Honestly, I hope that the styles combo box gets all the functionality of the panel, except it would be well-designed, and then the Styles panel would just become a copy of that, just docked to the side of the window.<br></div> <div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="im"> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> PS See you in Milan?<br> <br> <br> Yes, I hope so. :)<br> </blockquote> <br></div> :) - good to continue part of the conversation while looking at the screen! <br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br> thanks & best,<br> Cor<br></blockquote></div></div></div>