<div dir="ltr">Interesting points Jose. It turns LLVM IR is an IR that works well for both uses. Slicing it a bit differently, if you were to look at just a "binary language" (that is, not a "binary representation"), it is <div> </div><div>a) the language is good for communicating between different layers</div><div> </div><div>b) the representation is good for doing code transforms on</div><div> </div><div>Some IRs are just languages, while others have rich internal representations that make it easy to operate on them.</div> <div> </div><div>LLVM IR has both: It has a language form for transport, and a representation form for transforms. Regarding synergy, note that Khronos has SPIR (LLVM-based IR) and announced at Siggraph a binary language for GLSL.</div> <div><div> </div><div>Cheers,</div><div>JohnK</div><div> </div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"> <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Jose Fonseca <<a href="mailto:jfonseca@vmware.com" target="_blank">jfonseca@vmware.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">On 18/08/14 14:21, Marek Olšák wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Roland Scheidegger <<a href="mailto:sroland@vmware.com" target="_blank">sroland@vmware.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Am 16.08.2014 02:12, schrieb Connor Abbott: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I know what you might be thinking right now. "Wait, *another* IR? Don't we already have like 5 of those, not counting all the driver-specific ones? Isn't this stuff complicated enough already?" Well, there are some pretty good reasons to start afresh (again...). In the years we've been using GLSL IR, we've come to realize that, in fact, it's not what we want *at all* to do optimizations on. Ian has done a talk at FOSDEM that highlights some of the problems they've run into: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=https://video.fosdem.org/2014/H1301_Cornil/Saturday/Three_Years_Experience_with_a_Treelike_Shader_IR.webm&k=oIvRg1%2BdGAgOoM1BIlLLqw%3D%3D%0A&r=F4msKE2WxRzA%2BwN%2B25muztFm5TSPwE8HKJfWfR2NgfY%3D%0A&m=iXhCeAYmidPDc1lFo757Cc9V0PvWAN4n3X%2Fw%2B%2F7Lx%2Fs%3D%0A&s=f103fb26bf53eee64318a490517d1ee9ab88ecd29fcdbe49d54b5a27e7581c2e" target="_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=https://video.fosdem.org/2014/H1301_Cornil/Saturday/Three_Years_Experience_with_a_Treelike_Shader_IR.webm&k=oIvRg1%2BdGAgOoM1BIlLLqw%3D%3D%0A&r=F4msKE2WxRzA%2BwN%2B25muztFm5TSPwE8HKJfWfR2NgfY%3D%0A&m=iXhCeAYmidPDc1lFo757Cc9V0PvWAN4n3X%2Fw%2B%2F7Lx%2Fs%3D%0A&s=f103fb26bf53eee64318a490517d1ee9ab88ecd29fcdbe49d54b5a27e7581c2e</a> But here's the summary: * GLSL IR is way too much of a memory hog, since it has to make a new variable for each temporary the compiler creates and then each time you want to dereference that temporary you need to create an ir_dereference_variable that points to it which is also very cache-unfriendly ("downright cache-mean!"). * The expression trees were originally added so that we could do pattern matching to automatically optimize things, but this turned out to be both very difficult to do and not very helpful. Instead, all it does is add more complexity to the IR without much benefit - with SSA or having proper use-def chains, we could get back what the trees give us while also being able to do lots more optimizations. * We don't have the concept of basic blocks in GLSL IR, which makes a lot of optimizations harder because they were originally designed with basic blocks in mind - take, for example, my SSA series. I had to map a whole lot of concepts that were based on the control flow graph to this tree of statements that GLSL IR uses, and the end result wound up looking nothing at all like the original paper. This problem gets even worse for things like e.g. Global Code Motion that depend upon having the dominance tree. I originally wanted to modify GLSL IR to fix these problems by adding new instruction types that would address these issues and then converting back and forth between the old and the new form, but I realized that fixing all the problems would basically mean a complete rewrite - and if that's the case, then why don't we start from scratch? So I took Ken's suggestions and started designing, and then at Intel over the summer started implementing, a completely new IR which I call NIR that's at a lower level than GLSL IR, but still high-level enough to be mostly device-independant (different drivers may have different passes and different ways of lowering e.g. matrix multiplies) so that we can do generic optimizations on it. Having support for SSA from the beginning was also a must, because lots of optimisations that we really want for cleaning up DX9-translated games are either a lot easier in or made possible by SSA. I also made the decision for it to be typeless, because that's what the cool kids are all doing :) and for a lower-level, flat IR it seemed like the thing to do (it could have gone either way, though). So the key design points of NIR (pronounced either like "near" as in "NIR is near!" or to rhyme with "burr") are: * It's flat (no expression trees) * It's typeless * Modifiers (abs, negate, saturate), swizzles, and write masks are part of ALU instructions * It includes enough GLSL-like things (variables that you can load from or store to, function calls) to be hardware-agnostic (although we don't have a way to represent matrix multiplies right now, but that could easily be added) to be able to do optimizations at a high level, while having lowering passes that convert variables to registers and input/output/uniform loads/stores that will open up more opportunities for optimization and save memory while being more hardware-specific. * Control flow consists of a tree of if statements and loops, like in GLSL IR, except the leaves of the tree are now basic blocks instead of instructions. Also, each basic block keeps track of its successors and predecessors, so the control flow graph is explicit in the IR. * SSA is natively supported, and SSA uses point directly to the SSA definition, which means that the use-def chains are always there, and def-use chains are kept by tracking the set of all uses for each definition. * It's written in C. (see the README in patch 3 and nir.h in patch 4 for more details) Some things that are missing or could be improved: * There's currently no alias tracking for inputs, outputs, and uniforms. This is especially important for uniforms because we don't pack them like we pack inputs and outputs. * We need a way to represent matrix multiplies so that we can do matrix-flipping optimizations in NIR (currently GLSL IR does this for us). * I'm not entirely happy about how we represent loads and stores in the IR. Right now, they're intrinsics, but that means we need a different intrinsic for each size and combination of arguments (indirect vs. not indirect, etc.) and we might run into a combinatorial explosion problem in the future, so we might need to make separate load/store instructions like what I did for textures. * Right now, we only have a pass that lowers variables for scalar backends. We need to write a similar pass for vector backends that uses std140 packing or something similar, as well as porting lower_ubo_reference to NIR and changing it to output offsets in the hardware-native units instead of bytes. * We'll need to write a pass that splits up vector expressions for scalar backends. </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote></div></div> [...]<div class=""> > However, let's face it, gallium is stuck with TGSI <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> forever. Switching to another IR in Gallium is insane (unless you can rewrite all drivers and state trackers for it - let's be realistic, it just won't happen). The next GL NG IR, whatever it is going to be, will be just as important as the IR of ARB_vertex_program. TGSI will continue to be the major IR whether we like or not. </blockquote> </div> No, switching to another IR in Gallium is not insane if approached the right way. We already allow multiple IRs in gallium, so all it take to move to another IR is to having helper modules to do the translation: - a pipe driver helper module that would translate new IR into TGSI, for the sake of old pipe drivers - a state tracker helper module that would translate TGSI into the new IR, for the sake of old state trackers. Once these are in place, all development effort to go on to improving/leveraging the new IR. We could deprecate TGSI when it would have few users. I also want to highlight there are two kinds of "IR". a) one thing is a shader IR that communicates a shader between an interface (be it application interface High-level lang. IR GPU code App -----------------> front-end ----> back-end ----------> GPU b) another is a shader IR that is meant to faciliate code transformations (ie optimizations): opt. pass opt. pass IR ---------> IR ---------> IR --> .... Gallium needs a), but not necessarily b). An optimizing compiler needs b) internally but necessarily a). An IR that achieves both a) and b) is not impossible, but it is a more difficult trade-off. My point is: it's OK to use a different IR in Gallium interface, provided that the IR used in Gallium's interface doesn't lose information any information. On the other hand, there is a lot of momentum behind LLVM "inspired" IRs, like SPIR. So there would probably be alot of synergy if LLVM became Gallium's "standard" IR. Jose<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"> _______________________________________________ mesa-dev mailing list <a href="mailto:mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org" target="_blank">mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org</a> <a href="http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/mesa-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/mesa-dev</a> </div></div></blockquote></div> </div>