mhopf at suse.de
Fri Dec 3 10:37:54 PST 2004
haven't had enough time to look into this until right now...
On Nov 05, 04 21:54:55 +0100, David Reveman wrote:
> On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 11:11 -0700, Brian Paul wrote:
> > David Reveman wrote:
> > > I've been doing some work to get an X server running on top of
> > > OpenGL/glitz and I've got something that works pretty well now. I stuck
> > > the code into the "xserver" tree and './configure --enable-xglserver'
> > > should compile the common xgl code along with an Xglx server that can
> > > run on top of an existing X server with GLX.
Thanks a lot!
I guess it was easier to integrate this into KAA compared to XAA, and
thus you chose kdrive? Or are there any other reasons?
> > > With a good OpenGL driver and some luck, you should be able to run most
> > > applications on it. However, you should know that the Xglx server is
> > > really simple, there's no real cursor and compared to the Xnest server,
> > > Xglx must always run on top of all other windows as the back buffer is
> > > used for pixmap memory.
What about using PBuffers or the (yet-to-be-specified) RenderToTexture?
Any principle problems, or just the usual lack of time? You mentioned it
> > > A lot of operations are accelerated, some operations can be accelerated
> > > better, some operations are not accelerated but can be accelerated and
> > > some operations can never be accelerated.
I'm always thinking of wide lines, which are exactly specified in X, but
not in OpenGL. Until we have a change in semantics (that is, we make
X12) this type of primitve will always have to be renered in software
> > > * Get the fb layer to operate on pixel data with scan-line order
> > > bottom-to-top. This will make software fall-backs A LOT faster. As
> > > keithp told me, all we really need to do is to use negative strides and
> > > I'll give that a try within in a few days, hopefully that will work just
> > > fine.
> > Why do you need bottom-to-top raster order? I assume it has something
> > to do with OpenGL's conventions.
> I'm glad you asked. Normally when using OpenGL you would just load all
> texture data as it's stored by application and if this happens to be in
> top-to-bottom raster order you would just take care of that when
> assigning texture coordinates or when setting the texture matrix.
And how about setting up a frustum down the positive z axis, or with a
left handed coordinate system? Shouldn't be too problematic, done this
several times for rendering 2D data in OpenGL.
Ok, thinking about it, as you need to do
ReadPixels/DrawPixels/CopyTexImage2D a lot, this might be problematic.
One can set up PixelStore parameters so that effectively these calls
just do a plain copy even with top-to-bottom raster order, but I have to
admit I haven't tried negative GL_PACK_ROW_LENGTH yet. I don't know
whether these cases are optimized in many OpenGL implementations at
> With glitz, in general, and especially with Xgl, a lot of copying from
> framebuffer/pbuffers to textures is done. If textures contain pixel data
> stored in top-to-bottom order this cannot (as far as I know) be done
> efficiently and it's a lot more important that this framebuffer/pbuffer
> to texture copy is efficient than the user memory to texture copy.
Are textures stored inside the gfx card typically top-to-bottom or
bottom-to-top? That is, is (0,0) in texture coordinates corresponding to
the first line in memory or to the last line?
Actually, we should align screen layout to texture layout, as we cannot
change the latter (at least not on the OpenGL level).
> This is why glitz stores texture data in bottom-to-top raster order. If
> someone knows a better way around this problem please let me know.
:] Don't know whether these thoughts help, but I'll try...
> > > * Replace or improve the current xgl offscreen memory manager, it wastes
> > > huge amounts of memory right now.
> > > * Improve xrender text performance.
I always wondered why the render extension does effectively a lot of
things in software (composing several letters together) and sending
these down to the graphics hardware each and every time instead of
uploading fonts (or better: part of fonts) into a texture and use the
graphics hardware for accessing these data?
With vertex/pixel shader and point sprites we could come down to as much
as 6 bytes per character to be sent down to the gfx card (2 bytes for x,
y and character code) in the average case and 10-12 bytes for the
general case (4 bytes for x, y, 2 bytes character tex coords x, y,
2 or 4 bytes character size). Plus some code for texture switching in
the case of really nasty fonts with thousands of characters that cannot
be fit into a single texture.
If there are no pixel shader + point sprites, the number of vertices
increases (to render quads), but this should still be faster.
As all of this would be heavily OpenGL based, I would only start to try
something like this if we agree that this could indeed boost performance
even more. It certainly would require changes to the acceleration
> > > * Accelerate bitmap text. Performance of applications2 that use bitmap
> > > text is terrible right now. :(
Right, right. This could benefit from pixel shader even more.
> > > * Hook up glitz's convolution filters. This should be really easy, all
> > > we need is a software fall-back.
Hm. No use to do anything with the Imaging Pipeline, this has to be done
with pixel shader. Been there, done that, only accelerated on sgi, and
my personal guess is the Imaging Pipeline will never be accelerated on
PC style hardware.
> > > * Add Xagl and Xwgl servers.
:confused: Even google couldn't answer me...
You mean Xgl running the WGL extension? Then what's AGL?
> > > Have fun playing with it. If you find any bugs (and you will), please
> > > let me know.
I'll do ;)
> > Nice job!
Matthias Hopf <mhopf at suse.de> /-- /-- /-- mat at mshopf.de
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Phone +49-911-74053-715 --/ \_/ --/ \-- labs
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