[Linaro-mm-sig] [PATCH 1/2] dma-buf.rst: Document why indefinite fences are a bad idea

[Thomas Hellström (Intel)]

On 7/21/20 10:55 AM, Christian König wrote:
> Am 21.07.20 um 10:47 schrieb Thomas Hellström (Intel):
>>
>> On 7/21/20 9:45 AM, Christian König wrote:
>>> Am 21.07.20 um 09:41 schrieb Daniel Vetter:
>>>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 01:15:17PM +0200, Thomas Hellström (Intel) 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/9/20 2:33 PM, Daniel Vetter wrote:
>>>>>> Comes up every few years, gets somewhat tedious to discuss, let's
>>>>>> write this down once and for all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I'm not sure about is whether the text should be more 
>>>>>> explicit in
>>>>>> flat out mandating the amdkfd eviction fences for long running 
>>>>>> compute
>>>>>> workloads or workloads where userspace fencing is allowed.
>>>>> Although (in my humble opinion) it might be possible to completely 
>>>>> untangle
>>>>> kernel-introduced fences for resource management and dma-fences 
>>>>> used for
>>>>> completion- and dependency tracking and lift a lot of restrictions 
>>>>> for the
>>>>> dma-fences, including prohibiting infinite ones, I think this 
>>>>> makes sense
>>>>> describing the current state.
>>>> Yeah I think a future patch needs to type up how we want to make that
>>>> happen (for some cross driver consistency) and what needs to be
>>>> considered. Some of the necessary parts are already there (with 
>>>> like the
>>>> preemption fences amdkfd has as an example), but I think some clear 
>>>> docs
>>>> on what's required from both hw, drivers and userspace would be really
>>>> good.
>>>
>>> I'm currently writing that up, but probably still need a few days 
>>> for this.
>>
>> Great! I put down some (very) initial thoughts a couple of weeks ago 
>> building on eviction fences for various hardware complexity levels here:
>>
>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgitlab.freedesktop.org%2Fthomash%2Fdocs%2F-%2Fblob%2Fmaster%2FUntangling%2520dma-fence%2520and%2520memory%2520allocation.odt&data=02%7C01%7Cchristian.koenig%40amd.com%7C8978bbd7823e4b41663708d82d52add3%7C3dd8961fe4884e608e11a82d994e183d%7C0%7C0%7C637309180424312390&sdata=tTxx2vfzfwLM1IBJSqqAZRw1604R%2F0bI3MwN1%2FBf2VQ%3D&reserved=0 
>>
>
> I don't think that this will ever be possible.
>
> See that Daniel describes in his text is that indefinite fences are a 
> bad idea for memory management, and I think that this is a fixed fact.
>
> In other words the whole concept of submitting work to the kernel 
> which depends on some user space interaction doesn't work and never will.

Well the idea here is that memory management will *never* depend on 
indefinite fences: As soon as someone waits on a memory manager fence 
(be it eviction, shrinker or mmu notifier) it breaks out of any 
dma-fence dependencies and /or user-space interaction. The text tries to 
describe what's required to be able to do that (save for non-preemptible 
gpus where someone submits a forever-running shader).

So while I think this is possible (until someone comes up with a case 
where it wouldn't work of course), I guess Daniel has a point in that it 
won't happen because of inertia and there might be better options.

/Thomas