[Mesa-dev] [RFC] Linux Graphics Next: Explicit fences everywhere and no BO fences - initial proposal

Mon May 3 20:36:56 UTC 2021

What about direct submit from the kernel where the process still has write
access to the GPU ring buffer but doesn't use it? I think that solves your
preemption example, but leaves a potential backdoor for a process to
overwrite the signal commands, which shouldn't be a problem since we are OK
with timeouts.

Marek

On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 11:23 AM Jason Ekstrand <jason at jlekstrand.net> wrote:

> On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 10:16 AM Bas Nieuwenhuizen
> <bas at basnieuwenhuizen.nl> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 5:00 PM Jason Ekstrand <jason at jlekstrand.net>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry for the top-post but there's no good thing to reply to here...
> > >
> > > One of the things pointed out to me recently by Daniel Vetter that I
> > > didn't fully understand before is that dma_buf has a very subtle
> > > second requirement beyond finite time completion:  Nothing required
> > > for signaling a dma-fence can allocate memory.  Why?  Because the act
> > > of allocating memory may wait on your dma-fence.  This, as it turns
> > > out, is a massively more strict requirement than finite time
> > > completion and, I think, throws out all of the proposals we have so
> > > far.
> > >
> > > Take, for instance, Marek's proposal for userspace involvement with
> > > dma-fence by asking the kernel for a next serial and the kernel
> > > trusting userspace to signal it.  That doesn't work at all if
> > > allocating memory to trigger a dma-fence can blow up.  There's simply
> > > no way for the kernel to trust userspace to not do ANYTHING which
> > > might allocate memory.  I don't even think there's a way userspace can
> > > trust itself there.  It also blows up my plan of moving the fences to
> > > transition boundaries.
> > >
> > > Not sure where that leaves us.
> >
> > Honestly the more I look at things I think userspace-signalable fences
> > with a timeout sound like they are a valid solution for these issues.
> > Especially since (as has been mentioned countless times in this email
> > thread) userspace already has a lot of ways to cause timeouts and or
> > GPU hangs through GPU work already.
> >
> > Adding a timeout on the signaling side of a dma_fence would ensure:
> >
> > - The dma_fence signals in finite time
> > -  If the timeout case does not allocate memory then memory allocation
> > is not a blocker for signaling.
> >
> > Of course you lose the full dependency graph and we need to make sure
> > garbage collection of fences works correctly when we have cycles.
> > However, the latter sounds very doable and the first sounds like it is
> > to some extent inevitable.
> >
> > I feel like I'm missing some requirement here given that we
> > immediately went to much more complicated things but can't find it.
> > Thoughts?
>
> Timeouts are sufficient to protect the kernel but they make the fences
> unpredictable and unreliable from a userspace PoV.  One of the big
> problems we face is that, once we expose a dma_fence to userspace,
> we've allowed for some pretty crazy potential dependencies that
> neither userspace nor the kernel can sort out.  Say you have marek's
> "next serial, please" proposal and a multi-threaded application.
> Between time time you ask the kernel for a serial and get a dma_fence
> and submit the work to signal that serial, your process may get
> preempted, something else shoved in which allocates memory, and then
> we end up blocking on that dma_fence.  There's no way userspace can
> predict and defend itself from that.
>
> So I think where that leaves us is that there is no safe place to
> create a dma_fence except for inside the ioctl which submits the work
> and only after any necessary memory has been allocated.  That's a
> pretty stiff requirement.  We may still be able to interact with
> userspace a bit more explicitly but I think it throws any notion of
> userspace direct submit out the window.
>
> --Jason
>
>
> > - Bas
> > >
> > > --Jason
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 9:42 AM Alex Deucher <alexdeucher at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 6:27 PM Marek Olšák <maraeo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:07 AM Michel Dänzer <michel at daenzer.net>
> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 2021-04-28 8:59 a.m., Christian König wrote:
> > > > >> > Hi Dave,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Am 27.04.21 um 21:23 schrieb Marek Olšák:
> > > > >> >> Supporting interop with any device is always possible. It
> depends on which drivers we need to interoperate with and update them.
> We've already found the path forward for amdgpu. We just need to find out
> how many other drivers need to be updated and evaluate the cost/benefit
> aspect.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> Marek
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 2:38 PM Dave Airlie <airlied at gmail.com
> <mailto:airlied at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>     On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at 22:06, Christian König
> > > > >> >>     <ckoenig.leichtzumerken at gmail.com <mailto:
> ckoenig.leichtzumerken at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >> >>     >
> > > > >> >>     > Correct, we wouldn't have synchronization between device
> with and without user queues any more.
> > > > >> >>     >
> > > > >> >>     > That could only be a problem for A+I Laptops.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>     Since I think you mentioned you'd only be enabling this on
> newer
> > > > >> >>     chipsets, won't it be a problem for A+A where one A is a
> generation
> > > > >> >>     behind the other?
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Crap, that is a good point as well.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>     I'm not really liking where this is going btw, seems like
> a ill
> > > > >> >>     thought out concept, if AMD is really going down the road
> of designing
> > > > >> >>     hw that is currently Linux incompatible, you are going to
> have to
> > > > >> >>     accept a big part of the burden in bringing this support
> in to more
> > > > >> >>     than just amd drivers for upcoming generations of gpu.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Well we don't really like that either, but we have no other
> option as far as I can see.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I don't really understand what "future hw may remove support for
> kernel queues" means exactly. While the per-context queues can be mapped to
> userspace directly, they don't *have* to be, do they? I.e. the kernel
> driver should be able to either intercept userspace access to the queues,
> or in the worst case do it all itself, and provide the existing
> synchronization semantics as needed?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Surely there are resource limits for the per-context queues, so
> the kernel driver needs to do some kind of virtualization / multi-plexing
> anyway, or we'll get sad user faces when there's no queue available for
> <current hot game>.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'm probably missing something though, awaiting enlightenment. :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The hw interface for userspace is that the ring buffer is mapped
> to the process address space alongside a doorbell aperture (4K page) that
> isn't real memory, but when the CPU writes into it, it tells the hw
> scheduler that there are new GPU commands in the ring buffer. Userspace
> inserts all the wait, draw, and signal commands into the ring buffer and
> then "rings" the doorbell. It's my understanding that the ring buffer and
> the doorbell are always mapped in the same GPU address space as the
> process, which makes it very difficult to emulate the current protected
> ring buffers in the kernel. The VMID of the ring buffer is also not
> changeable.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The doorbell does not have to be mapped into the process's GPU
> virtual
> > > > address space.  The CPU could write to it directly.  Mapping it into
> > > > the GPU's virtual address space would allow you to have a device kick
> > > > off work however rather than the CPU.  E.g., the GPU could kick off
> > > > it's own work or multiple devices could kick off work without CPU
> > > > involvement.
> > > >
> > > > Alex
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > The hw scheduler doesn't do any synchronization and it doesn't see
> any dependencies. It only chooses which queue to execute, so it's really
> just a simple queue manager handling the virtualization aspect and not much
> else.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marek
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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>
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