[Libre-graphics-meeting-org] Logs + next meeting LGM2017: Thursday 15 October 12:30 CET

[Femke Snelting]

See you at the LGM2017 meeting today, 12:30-13:30 at #lgm @ irc.freenode.net !

F

On 09/27/2015 11:30 PM, Femke Snelting wrote:
> In a first discussion on possible locations for LGM today, we formulated main questions and concerns vis-a-vis proposals for LGM in Brasil or Singapore.
> We'll run them by Joao and Hong Phuc in the coming week.
> With their answers, we'll work towards a conclusion in the next meeting:
> Thursday 15 October 12:30 CET at #lgm @ irc.freenode.net
>
>
> Femke
>
>
>
> ////////////
>
>
> LGM 2017 location discussion, 27/09/2015
> https://titanpad.com/lgm-location-2017
>
> (09:18:13 PM) F_S: so we start discussing Singapore, or we change the order?
> (09:18:56 PM) laraaa: i'm ok with the agenda as is
> (09:19:12 PM) louis_d: I don’t think it matters by what we start. However it would be good to have people from each local organisation on board here.
> (09:20:00 PM) F_S: hong phuc is in a plane, joao I don't know so we'll need to relay
> (09:20:52 PM) F_S: we can start by gathering questions?
> (09:21:11 PM) F_S: in a plane = traveling at this moment
> (09:21:52 PM) F_S: from the proposal for singapore, what do we think?
> (09:22:25 PM) louis_d: About budget, first time we have to pay for the venue and the budget is significant. This needs to be addressed.
> (09:23:14 PM) pippin: F_S: my thinking is about the contrast between the proposals; not the proposals on their own
> (09:23:22 PM) Davelab6_ [ac3808e2 at gateway/web/freenode/ip.172.56.8.226] entered the room.
> (09:23:47 PM) F_S: can you explain more?
> (09:23:51 PM) Davelab6 left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
> (09:23:51 PM) F_S: pippin?
> (09:23:54 PM) louis_d: F_S:  what do you mean?
> (09:24:38 PM) F_S: what do you mean by "contrast between the two proposals" pippin?
> (09:24:46 PM) pippin: I get more of a business/money/open source/tech-startup vibe off the singepore proposal, and more of cultural / free / libre-software/society spirit from the brazil one
> (09:25:51 PM) F_S: Yes, I had the same impression. Each proposal has a different perspective, alliances
> (09:26:42 PM) pippin: I have been to both singapore and brazil; and the difference in perspective/approach is unsurpising, but I think also significant
> (09:27:02 PM) F_S: Yes. I haven't been to either, by the way
> (09:27:05 PM) Davelab6_: Agree reflects the macro culture
> (09:29:07 PM) n8willis [~nate at 50.26.246.186] entered the room.
> (09:29:44 PM) F_S: so is there ways we could bring a cultural/free/libre-software/society approach with us? or would it not be possible?
> (09:30:10 PM) F_S: (same q in the opposite direction for brasil of course?)
> (09:31:02 PM) Davelab6_: Brasil economy is down atm
> (09:31:32 PM) Davelab6_: Maybe that's good for bringing more business side to libre sw
> (09:31:55 PM) F_S: you mean this could be an argument for singapore
> (09:33:20 PM) pippin: Davelab6_: the business side of libre sw in latin america seems to focus on different trajectories than incubators and start-ups, but it does exist
> n8willis nomis
> (09:34:32 PM) pippin: Davelab6_: people doing things with/teaching/documenting/translating software with money from the society (gov/tax); rather from consumers
> (09:34:40 PM) F_S: n8willis: https://titanpad.com/lgm-location-2017
> (09:34:41 PM) mrscribe: Title: TitanPad: lgm-location-2017 (at titanpad.com)
> (09:35:03 PM) n8willis: I'm there; thx F_S
> (09:35:11 PM) louis_d: hey Nate!
> (09:35:18 PM) n8willis: hey
> (09:35:49 PM) F_S: i'm wondering about political issues in Singapore. it is not easy to  answer of course. it is not at all part of their proposal, how could  we address this in non-naive ways?
> (09:36:23 PM) louis_d: F_S: what do you mean?
> (09:37:09 PM) F_S: human rights situation, press freedom. which is as far as people i trust tell me, not great.
> (09:38:04 PM) F_S: this does not need to mean we don't go, but we can't ignore, can we?
> (09:38:11 PM) n8willis: Is the concern that (a) incidents might occur to attendees or (b) that potential attendees might not want to go?
> (09:38:21 PM) louis_d: I agree we cannot ignore this.
> (09:38:43 PM) Davelab6_: I mean that brasil could do more to include profit projects, if lack of them is a point against
> (09:38:44 PM) F_S: my concern is not with (a)
> (09:38:52 PM) n8willis: ok
> (09:39:25 PM) n8willis: (c) authorities might interfere with the event?
> (09:39:44 PM) n8willis: (I know there are other possibilities; just seeking more specifics....)
> (09:39:49 PM) Davelab6_: I doubt ç also
> (09:40:04 PM) pippin: there is both (b) as stated, and (c); in seeing LGM choosing and intending to be hosted somewhere - to be a statement off support for the general government/regime/politics of a hosting country
> (09:40:15 PM) n8willis: (c) would include visa trouble
> (09:40:18 PM) pippin: oh - competing C arsoe
> (09:40:46 PM) F_S: hah. so my concern is with "a statement of support for the general government/regime/politics of a hosting country"
> (09:41:08 PM) F_S: tricky
> (09:41:32 PM) Davelab6_: I don't care much for b. In Canada this year a lot of people didn't attend, and Asia is an important region with its own culture. I hardly see the west as having a high ground on hr any more
> (09:42:25 PM) n8willis: well, in that case, it's a messaging question -- can we frame our choice as "it's important to bring free-software principles to regions where people often struggle with such issues?"
> (09:42:33 PM) Davelab6_: I don't think holding an event in Canada endorses the environment destruction in alberta
> (09:42:54 PM) F_S: right
> (09:43:24 PM) F_S: so as we discuss communities to connect to, how would singapore help to grow lgm?
> (09:43:29 PM) pippin: but hosting an event in london is public shrugging about surveillance and GCHQ?
> (09:43:36 PM) Davelab6_: Does an event in Belgium endorse the eu treatment of greece?
> (09:43:58 PM) n8willis: ok, Boat in International Water it is, then
> (09:44:08 PM) laraaa: :)
> (09:44:11 PM) pippin: I think singapore is worse than london though..
> (09:44:27 PM) Davelab6_: Seasteading with billionaires
> (09:44:33 PM) pippin: singapore being a somewhat imperialistic trade-hub, alienly imposed on the region and surrounding terrain...
> (09:45:04 PM) n8willis: really, I feel that we could choose to engage the issue - wherever it is - and work hard to deliver clarity on it.
> (09:45:30 PM) Davelab6_: Pippin I dont think you are right to project your view. HP is Vietnamese and she's proposing Singapore
> (09:46:18 PM) pippin: she is proposing singapore, and singapore is great for business; I do hope LGM is more culture than business though
> (09:46:21 PM) Davelab6_: I think all these politics are very remote from libre graphics
> (09:46:54 PM) F_S: i don't agree :-) but am ready to accept we don't make it an issue, if that is consensus
> (09:47:06 PM) F_S: but we can't ignore, right?
> (09:47:34 PM) F_S: so back to potential for lgm to grow ... how real is the possibility for lasting connecitons?
> (09:47:59 PM) F_S: how is the proposal hinting at that?
> (09:49:04 PM) n8willis: first thought: within git repositories, the possibility is very good. for user-to-user connections, it's harder.
> (09:49:07 PM) louis_d: I am not sure we have stressed that question about LGM growth sufficiently in our guide lines. This shows in the proposals. It’s undefined. Maybe too much understated?
> (09:49:31 PM) louis_d: Should we clarify?
> n8willis nomis
> (09:50:02 PM) a-l-e: ... mmm... i guess that we are confusing the meaning and the goal...
> (09:50:07 PM) a-l-e: it's not about lgm growth...
> (09:50:23 PM) a-l-e: it's about growth of the projects building the lgm...
> (09:50:32 PM) n8willis: a-l-e, I assumed we meant 'libre graphics growth'
> (09:50:51 PM) a-l-e: yep, that's fine n8willis :-)
> (09:51:16 PM) F_S: ok, yes -- used it as shortcut
> (09:51:29 PM) n8willis: IMO, the fact that Singapore does not have one accommodation near the venue is problematic for 'fostering community connections'
> (09:51:47 PM) n8willis: :. people head different directions after the last talk
> (09:52:08 PM) Davelab6_: It's also a small place
> (09:52:12 PM) n8willis: we could counterbalance that by planning more social events
> (09:52:17 PM) F_S: "There are more than 100 open source user groups in Singapore" is impressive for a small space
> (09:52:18 PM) Davelab6_: If there are event social plans
> (09:52:32 PM) Davelab6_: People meet there and then head home separate ways
> (09:52:32 PM) F_S: so if singapore, sth to take into account
> (09:52:35 PM) n8willis: sure; it just takes intentionality
> (09:52:40 PM) a-l-e: à propos community... does anybody know about existing participation of singaporians (and nearby places) or brazil to the lg projects that produce software?
> (09:52:43 PM) Davelab6_: That seems the same as Toronto to me
> (09:52:53 PM) a-l-e: are there any aproximative numbers?
> (09:53:08 PM) F_S: Davelab6_: i agree.
> (09:53:58 PM) n8willis: Davelab6_, agree; I think that on the whole I've made many connections over meals / tours / hanging out in lobbies at LGM that wouldn't have happened otherwise
> akv a-l-e Animtim ankh
> (09:54:53 PM) pippin: a-l-e: gimp has joao that participates with python infrastructure and code
> (09:55:41 PM) n8willis: a-l-e, we should ask for those.
> (09:55:47 PM) F_S: ok, but singapore? do we know of any existing connections?
> (09:55:52 PM) pippin: a-l-e: gimp/gegl has had succesful brazilian gsoc students in addition as well
> (09:56:00 PM) Davelab6_: Inkscape had Felipe Sanches
> (09:56:14 PM) n8willis: GNOME Asia may have some resources
> (09:56:16 PM) HoloIRCUser5 [~holoirc at 213.205.251.84] entered the room.
> (09:56:17 PM) F_S: yes. could be a reason to go to a place we don't have connections, and make an effort.
> (09:56:36 PM) HoloIRCUser5 is now known as phil
> (09:56:40 PM) F_S: ok, last issue: flights
> patdavid phil pippin plinnell
> (09:56:51 PM) F_S: hey phil
> (09:56:58 PM) phil: Hey!
> (09:56:59 PM) Davelab6_: In the font js community I perceive  there are a lot of e/se Asian pr authors
> (09:57:05 PM) phil is now known as Guest77322
> (09:57:38 PM) a-l-e: scribus has a few brazilian active in the community; we have had japaneses with little contributions related to their language; the same for some chinese. but i don't think they have ever joined the "international" community.
> (09:58:05 PM) F_S: ok, so that could be a reason to make an effort?
> (09:58:18 PM) a-l-e: i don't know.
> (09:59:08 PM) F_S: so flights from EU to Singapore are similar to Toronto. A little cheaper, in fact
> (09:59:09 PM) a-l-e: i'm not sure that we have the strength to make an effort. i'm more keen to think that we need all the support we can found...
> (09:59:36 PM) pippin: for non-local contributors to projects, seeing how an alternative political reality where the libre graphics stack is thought in school and used in the state,. might be more inspiring than the challenge of making an effort :)
> (10:00:23 PM) louis_d: The budget is something that needs to be discussed in-depth wrt Singapore proposal. Sorry to bring this up again.
> (10:00:46 PM) a-l-e: i agree with you louis...
> (10:00:55 PM) laraaa: me too
> (10:01:13 PM) F_S: yes, that's clear.
> (10:01:22 PM) laraaa: also there's mention of 10000usd for translation in brasil
> (10:01:29 PM) F_S: ok let's move to brasil now
> (10:01:39 PM) Davelab6_: Pippin, not sure, if you live in an area without subsidies, isn't that frustrating?  :)
> (10:01:47 PM) a-l-e: in the past we already had money going to the organisation. but it was also completely (or more) covered by the local team. outside of the normal lgm budget. iirc.
> akv a-l-e Animtim ankh
> (10:02:41 PM) F_S: a-l-e: as far as i know, all organisation costs etc. have been taken by local orgs so far
> (10:02:58 PM) F_S: so what are the main questions for brasil?
> (10:03:07 PM) pippin: Davelab6_: it provides a reality check, good to know and understand that there isn't only "one market" on the internet
> (10:03:51 PM) pippin: Davelab6_: if it is really frustrating - and a skilled person - I am sure they might be welcomed at a migration desk if they had an offer for a job, and didn't have debt chasing them
> (10:04:20 PM) n8willis: I'm confused about the date proposal for Brazil
> (10:04:21 PM) a-l-e: yes, but iirc the singapure proposal does not tell how the intend to cover an organisational budget that is higher than what other full lgm have costed.
> (10:04:49 PM) F_S: ok wait -- what *is* the date proposed for brasil?
> (10:04:52 PM) n8willis: namely, why not Mar/Apr/May
> (10:04:58 PM) laraaa: september
> (10:05:02 PM) n8willis: F_S, it's Sep/Oct
> (10:05:23 PM) F_S: ah ok. so this is climate? sorry, have no clue about temp in spring
> (10:05:54 PM) n8willis: they say it's closer to GNUGraf
> (10:05:54 PM) F_S: so we need to ask
> (10:05:57 PM) F_S: ah
> (10:06:28 PM) laraaa: i'd like to ask about translation
> (10:06:33 PM) n8willis: But I don't understand if they want to *colocate* with GNUGraf or what,,,,
> (10:06:44 PM) F_S: overlapping/connecting to other events, can be pos and neg
> (10:06:49 PM) n8willis: yeah
> (10:06:52 PM) pippin: n8willis: they want GNUgraf to be a subevent of LGM
> (10:07:05 PM) n8willis: Ah; that's clearer
> (10:07:19 PM) pippin: they seem to consider LGM coming to visit,. to be the mothership coming by
> (10:07:46 PM) F_S: haha it's more a mothercanoe
> (10:08:12 PM) F_S: translation, laraaa you want to ask because of the budget?
> (10:08:20 PM) laraaa: yes
> (10:08:29 PM) n8willis: well, I would just want to know if they are open to having the motherdinghy visit at a different time....
> (10:08:34 PM) laraaa: can it be sorted through volunteering?
> (10:08:58 PM) n8willis: laraaa, there may be equipment costs as well
> (10:08:59 PM) pippin: n8willis: maybe before "Rio 2016 Olympics (5-21 Aug) and Paralympics (7-18 Sep)" is worse than after ...
> (10:09:07 PM) F_S: possible, there are diy systems for that but it is a lot of work
> (10:09:08 PM) laraaa: it is important to have it cos brasillians are not super duper with english
> (10:09:43 PM) n8willis: pippin, the proposal suggests Sep 17-18-19...
> (10:09:56 PM) laraaa: nor am i ;)
> (10:09:58 PM) F_S: it would only make sense if website, programme etc. was translated too i guess
> (10:10:31 PM) F_S: ok, so we ask about translation costs and alternatives, and timing.
> (10:10:45 PM) laraaa: yep - it would have to be bilingual to appeal to local audience
> (10:10:45 PM) pippin: n8willis: mhm - paralymics is less complete traffic chaos due to visitors than a regular olympics, but it does indeed overlap a little
> (10:11:07 PM) louis_d: about translation, I think it is important if we want to have local people to attend. We need to ask about how this would be funded. In the past, we had OIF help cover all the translation costs in French (Belgium and Canada/Québec) and in Madrid, we had this service too, both ways if I recall well.
> (10:11:41 PM) n8willis: the other concern I have (apart from disrupting our typical date) is that once a conference date slips to later-in-the-year, it almost never slips back to the original
> (10:11:43 PM) F_S: yes, Madrid translation was paid by Medialab Prado through EU funding
> n8willis nomis
> (10:12:13 PM) Guest77322 left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
> (10:12:24 PM) louis_d: The cost to this service is nearly 10K for 4 days. It has to be done by professionals. In my view, it’s not possible to rely on volunteers to achieve this work.
> (10:12:53 PM) F_S: which is cheap for professional translation, by the way
> (10:13:10 PM) n8willis: (e.g., LGM 2018 would either have 7 to 8 months of lead/preparation or else LGM 2018 would also be late in the year.)
> n8willis nomis
> (10:13:30 PM) louis_d: I believe this would not add to LGM budget, if we can have a specific grant for it.
> (10:13:41 PM) F_S: yes, this is an issue though slightly easier with a decision made asap
> (10:13:50 PM) louis_d: exact!
> (10:14:39 PM) laraaa: ok, back to dates n8willis is making a good point about sliding out of sync with spring timing
> (10:14:49 PM) n8willis: Davelab6_, we should note who ATYpI uses for translation in SP
> (10:14:57 PM) F_S: ok the big hurldle for brazil is flights from EU of course
> (10:15:09 PM) laraaa: yep
> (10:16:11 PM) louis_d: The budget issue on Brazil venue is also challenging and should be covered. The flight costs will be higher than in Europe and this will impact LGM budget. It will also impact the Europeans that make or not the decision to make the trip.
> (10:16:14 PM) F_S: oh and flights from asia, ouch
> (10:16:22 PM) louis_d: ouch! :)
> (10:16:53 PM) F_S: us/ca not such a difference to singapore
> (10:17:01 PM) louis_d: right
> (10:17:10 PM) pippin: travel and hosting has been different budgets in the past; and unless bidder offers to do the pledgie/reimbursement part as weel probably will continue to be..
> (10:19:41 PM) louis_d: yes, this is right. However we have failed to gather as much money as in the past. Google gave us 3K this year and gave 5K in the previous years. The Pledgie campaign is also low. So it’s only by chance that we could cover 100% of the needs so far, including this year in Toronto.
> (10:20:32 PM) louis_d: We will definitely have to make a clear mention (clearer) that while we try to cover the flight expenses, it’s not a promise and we go by the budget we have.
> (10:20:34 PM) pippin: being able to run the event on local funds to a 0 balance without involving international donations
> (10:21:02 PM) louis_d: I believe that this is what happened in all LGM so far.
> (10:21:08 PM) n8willis: Well, in either case, we would be counting on a prediction of how much could/would be raised.  I wish we could have something more concrete from the various teams
> (10:21:37 PM) louis_d: Right.
> (10:21:43 PM) F_S: this is of course very hard, to get a confirmation on sponsorship for an event that is not confirmed yet
> (10:21:46 PM) n8willis: like, could we ask them to record names of contacts they have discussed the event with?
> (10:22:04 PM) n8willis: that info would have to be kept confidential
> (10:22:15 PM) n8willis: but it would perhaps give more insight
> (10:22:53 PM) F_S: it would tell us how much they have been able to prepare at this moment, but not about what they could pull off once a decision is made.
> (10:23:19 PM) n8willis: that doesn't have to be "homework" we demand; if potential sponsors they talk to have questions or concerns, we could also help the team provide them with answers
> (10:23:32 PM) louis_d: away from keyboard for 5 minutes but will definitely catch up.
> (10:23:47 PM) F_S: ok
> (10:23:58 PM) n8willis: F_S, that's true. But it also encourages them to start early
> (10:24:31 PM) n8willis: in the event fundraising I've done in TX, the #1 reason for "no" responses was "we've already used up our sponsorship budget this year"
> (10:25:35 PM) F_S: agree, but they don't have a decision at their hands yet so it is hard to get a serious conversation about 'in case we would do lgm, would you be interested'
> (10:25:42 PM) n8willis: then again, I wouldn't want to put the team in an awkward position b having them start those conversations now and then later having to say the event is going to the other country
> (10:26:04 PM) F_S: btw, the proposed venue, the Caminho Niemeyer complex, looks far out
> n8willis nomis
> (10:27:09 PM) F_S: does anyone know the other team members Carlos Eduardo Mattos da Cruz, Guilherme Razgriz Magalhães ?
> (10:28:24 PM) F_S: Same for Singapore: Roland Turner, Zhuan Teo, Eden Jade anyone?
> (10:29:25 PM) pippin: I've attended a talk by Magalhães, but do not know him
> (10:29:50 PM) F_S: ok
> (10:30:30 PM) F_S: so more questions for brasil?
> (10:30:33 PM) n8willis: I don't think I know any of them, but then again I don't really know pippin either...
> (10:30:39 PM) F_S: haha
> (10:31:39 PM) n8willis: none here
> (10:32:05 PM) F_S: ok, so looks like we need to ask questions to each of the proposers, and set a next meeting for a decision
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