[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 138628] ClearDirectFormatting does not remove page break

[bugzilla-daemon at bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138628

--- Comment #26 from Telesto <telesto at surfxs.nl> ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #22)
> (In reply to Telesto from comment #20)
> > There is no flowing seamlessly from paradigm A into B . It's abrupt ending
> 
> This is the mistake you repeat again and again, not trying to accept your
> mistake. LibreOffice is not a teaching tool. 

"Teaching tool" is the outer of the spectrum, IMHO. Which I would call Clippy.
Or help. However I prefer to be in control. And being able to estimate what a
function is doing (based on past experience, and maybe even other tools). 

The bold icon as 'bold' b. B. CTRL+B being surprisingly the shortcut. And
letter being *bold*. We could also show cursive I in the toolbar for bold with
shortcut CTRL+C. You sort of Stroop-effect. 
The Bold button is as it is, because similarity (convenience/recognizable).
It's easy to remember (b for bold) and visual supporting. So has all elements
of 'teaching' subtly embedded

It also touches the design principles in my interpretation of them
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles (Self-Explanatory &
ux-consistency). 

I prefer self-explaining functions and ux-consistency. The same function is
presented in different ways. Insert -> Page break kind of pointing to object.
And there is Format -> Paragraph Style -> Text Flow -> Page Break.

Insert -> Page break -> could hypothetically also point to  Format -> Paragraph
Style -> Text Flow tab. From functionality perspective not that much different. 

I never ever realized of presence Format -> Paragraph Style -> Text Flow
because of Alt+Enter & Insert -> Page break . And page break kind of buried
deep in the paragraph settings, while rather often used.

-> And because most of LibreOffice really does match my expectations on - what
you call 'teaching' - I assume this also to be true for page breaks (and number
of other areas). Inserting landscape page style between page breaks by double
clicking one of them (different bug report)


It is *not* created to provide
> some sort of "smooth transition" between paradigms by revelation. It is
> built around (and provides a tool set for those who use) style-pased
> approach. It *also* provides a separate (limited) tool set for those who
> don't use the styles paradigm, as much as fits into LibreOffice
> architecture. The two paradigms are *incompatible*. The latter is not meant
> as an educational material. It is created to *allow people have their task
> done* for those who *don't* use styles. That's all. If you need to learn the
> other paradigm, there's no smooth transition. You need to read guides, and
> change your mind set. There is no, and never will be, the thing that you
> expect again and again in your numerous posts: things that allow you to live
> comfortably between the two stools. This is just because the two paradigms
> are incompatible. And in this case, it's the same: if you use helper tools
> as means to understand program architecture (or at least underlying
> principles), you are doing it wrong.

I barely use styles, but I do use page breaks, I encounter issue never the less
because of the paradigms. And comment 10 also makes note of two visions
floating around. If LibreOffice page break by paragraph style it should make it
more obvious from the start. Insert -> Page Break -> Manual page break could
point to Paragraph styles dialog instead of dedicated dialog. And say pre-fill
the settings. Pressing OK would still 'do' what it supposed to do. But not
masking the whole conceptual difference. 

I not extensive user of documentation. And also 'hard' to search for something
if you don't know where it's coming from. What do I search for if *hello* turns
up bold. If you now it's autocorrect you now where to look in help. But if you
have no clue how, what and where.. Same holds true for page breaks (and have
couple of other bugs open with surprise or struggle factor. 
Where it must be possible to make path bit more 'smooth'. Instead helping out
but putting people on the wrong foot with that at the same time. 
Kind of similar to the whole bold/unbold topic. Where clicking bold is enable
bold. And clicking it again not resulting in disable bold (which GUI suggesting
this), but being explicit unbold [It similar thing to me, but I admit out of
scope here]

And this: "*allow people have their task done* for those who *don't* use
styles" is simply untrue. The fact if you use styles or not is irrelevant. 
It suggests the scope of the issue would be limited exclusively to explicit
page style users. However even the defaults are styles. And the page break is
still a formatting not an object if with active usage of styles
Drag drop starting of first paragraph after page break creates unwanted
results.. And DOCX tends to love to add additional page breaks, make extending
the conflict. 

I believe there must be alternative possible to *allow people have their task
done* while being more transparent about what's happening. The main objective
is surely: *allow people have their task done*. However, I think it can be
implemented more communicative. So you might get a feeling in kind of natural -
non-intrusive/disturbing way - about what's happening. 
So searching for win-win proposition. Communicative ui/getting work done) are
not two Mutual exclusive targets (zero sum game) The can blend into each other,
IMHO. The can go hand in hand, IMHO.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-bugs/attachments/20201210/c14309c6/attachment.htm>