<html> <head> <base href="https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/"> </head> <body> <div> <a class="bz_bug_link bz_status_UNCONFIRMED " title="UNCONFIRMED - Highlighting no fill is not the same as no fill; there is still direct formatting present according to paragraph style" href="https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135871#c8">Comment # 8</a> on <a class="bz_bug_link bz_status_UNCONFIRMED " title="UNCONFIRMED - Highlighting no fill is not the same as no fill; there is still direct formatting present according to paragraph style" href="https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135871">bug 135871</a> from <a class="email" href="mailto:telesto@surfxs.nl" title="Telesto <telesto@surfxs.nl>"> Telesto</a> <pre>Created <a href="http://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=164990" name="attach_164990" title="Example 2 (bold)">attachment 164990</a> <a href="http://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=164990&action=edit" title="Example 2 (bold)">[details]</a> Example 2 (bold) (In reply to Mike Kaganski from <a href="show_bug.cgi?id=135871#c7">comment #7</a>) > (In reply to Telesto from <a href="show_bug.cgi?id=135871#c5">comment #5</a>) > > No. Ctrl+M is *not* a last resort. There are hundreds of possible pieces of > manual formatting. They interact in different ways to result in what you > see, with no easy way to know which specific manual setting produced this > effect. If you took time to learn e.g. rationale for styles inspector, you > would know that. Introducing those hundreds of tools for a task that is not > going to be used is just useless. > > WF imo. I'm not asking for hundreds (or thousands of tools). I'm only taking about the formatting toolbar. My major problem is that if you started using direct formatting, there is no to they untouched state for a specific direct formatting. They direct formatting will keep interfering with styles. Another example 1. Open the attached file 2. Select World 3. CTRL+B 4. CTRL+B 5. Change paragraph style to Default paragraph style -> In this case BOLD is DF. This makes the usage of styles quickly hard and confusing. The opposite of what's intended. And doesn't result in the quick and easy layout changes as advertised. You need to be very very disciplined not to use DF somewhere, at some point. And the whole idea of quickly changes a style becomes quite a check, double check, triple check the document again (as there might be DF at at a place it should be) And LibreOffice is surely not design to prevent or easily correct such a mistake without CTRL+M (throwing all formatting - even the intended stuff - away). No someone starts with .. you should have used Character Styles.. but applying those is cumbersome. CTRL+B is faster.. or for the ones who love markdown *bold* (still DF). And no, you might not interested in changing the look of the DF text, again. So usage of those styles rather pointless (a contrary to the Paragraph styles) A similar problem arises with 'no-fill'. If you highlight some (direct formatted text, font type bold etc) text with yellow, and want to remove it, you use no-fill. Which works with the DF paradigm. However "no fill" is literally no fill in the page style paradigm. So if highlighting being able in a style, no fill overrides the style if it has highlighting in it Something similar with font color automatic. I assumed, back to 'style inheritance', but this is not the case. They Style Inspector reliefs some of black box effect. But feels more after the fact tool, instead of mitigating the cause (pre-emptive). If you make a mistake with DF, it will hunt you.. there is no leniency And I personally tend to Write first an care about the layout in a later stadium. So surely use some DF in the process. Maybe even undo afterwards (disabled bold), but still lingering in the background. CTRL+M removes all direct formatting (except as it seems the language setting?); which is rather excessive number of cases. If you 'want to remove the bold' DF, but keep the Italic. If I used different fonts in some sentences with and also applied a font color (which being reverted to automatic), it can't be managed by styles anymore. And it's already hard to see bold highlight up in the DF formatting toolbar with if this actually being caused by a paragraph/character style. And if you unbold/bold again, you applied DF. This this makes styles rather fuzz to use. Confusing, tiresome to manage/ and keep track off. You simple drop the styles, as and do it the old an dirty DF way. Except for areas like Headings. Because the style causing way to much strain to be used in the whole document. Only to hardcore users remain; instead of being useful in general. For the Italic/Bold/Underline area you use one button to things. As DF toggle button. And as button to show the current active style formatting. In exact the same way... with the same button (which is a mistake) In extension of that, if you have default paragraph style and press bold button, the non-bold becomes bold. Press Bold button again it it's unbolded. But not back to paragraph style, now it's unbold as DF. Visa versa. If paragraph style is a bold, the BOLD button in the toolbar will be highlighted. And you press unbold, a DF unbold is applied. And the button becomes de-activated. Press BOLD again, button become active (as at the start) and text will be bold, but this is DF bold, not style bold. (So GUI is not informative at all). And secondly there is no way to get rid of the direct formatting again.. (problem two) There is CTRL+M; however actually removes all formatting. In theory a 'special remove formatting' dialog could be created, where could be selected which DF should be removed. In some sense as the Special Paste dialog in Calc. This would make it possible to pick the stuff you want to remove, instead of all or nothing. However still patch on a wound. Next to it you have the 'no-fill' and 'automatic' terminology. No fill effect means something different in they DF world compared to they PS world. And there is even no alternative offered, next to no fill. Automatic has for me the 'default/PS meaning' but that's true either. And also here no alternative. A solution would that bold;italic/underline and such shouldn't be binary toggle on/off but have tripple state. Bold/unbold/off (style based). While Style Based Bold button have different look different, compared to DF Bold. Border around the button or whatever to make it distinct.. If the objection should be people get confused by tripple states or whatever; start with additional toolbar offering this. And propagate that one to be used when using styles [and can be added to the initial configuration 'wizard' the customize LibreOffice first launch/or being accessed later on. There quite a number 'disputable' defaults. From tabbed dialog to markdown or spell checker ignoring numbers in words as wrong spelled.]. Most of those setting are now at forced on say 50% of the user base. Causing questions & frustration. And no, I don't automatically setting, and if so, I don't know how it's called nor where to look] Related to highlighting and font color an additional 'off' button should be offered. FWIW, I'm not intending to 'solve' all the DF issues. And CTRL+M might be still useful, but it currently needs to be used far to often. This simply should be needed for the most applied formatting options (as shown in the formatting toolbar). This simply a UX/design flaw. That users don't grasp the styles concept or having trouble with it, is caused/aggravated by how it's implemented in LibreOffice.</pre> </div> <hr> You are receiving this mail because: <ul> <li>You are the assignee for the bug.</li> </ul> </body> </html>