[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 141452] Rename Tools > Chapter Numbering back to Outline Numbering

[bugzilla-daemon at bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=141452

--- Comment #26 from Eyal Rozenberg <eyalroz1 at gmx.com> ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #24)
> Please note that you try to force some *dictionary* meaning of terms into
> Writer. This is wrong.

It's not wrong. That is, users read text in an application's UI and interpret
it according to the common meaning of the terms (the "dictionary" meaning).
This will necessarily happen and cannot be defined as "wrong". while users can
be educated about certain terms having a different meaning within an app, it's
usually a good idea to minimize the extent to which that happens.


> Outline, chapter, and heading are OK to (and *must*) have *special* and
> specific meaning in Writer.

Technically, they _can_ have a very special and specific meaning in Writer, but
why _must_ they have one? Or rather, why _must_ it be very different than the
dictionary meaning?

> When you write "Most documents people write
> don't have Chapters anyway" (and the like), you are completely away from the
> problem of correct use of specific Writer term, confusing different entities
> (and making a potential fix much harder).

You are focusing on myself personally, but it is the _users_ who are
"completely away" from the use of Writer terms you expect. A user writing a
document with sections, whose heading paragraphs use styles Heading 1, Heading
2 etc., would assume a "Chapter Numbering" menu item is irrelevant to their
document.

And yes, this fact makes it somewhat harder to fix things: We/you will need to
better reconcile the meaning ascribed to terms in regular (English) language
use with the desire to use LO-Writer-specific definitions.

> So:
> * Heading is a paragraph having an outline level other than "Text Body".

No it isn't. We can set the outline level of an arbitrary style, with no
intention of considering it to head anything in the text (Example: Perhaps I
want certain blockquotes of particular importance to appear in the outline view
of my document). If instead of "Outline level" you called that property
"Heading level", then you could make your argument. But we/you have chosen to
say "Outline", so... no, a paragraph having an outline level other than "Text
Body" is not necessarily a Heading.

> * Chapter is a part of text starting from a heading with outline level 1,
> and up to the next heading with outline level 1.

Here my objection is somewhat weaker. That is, it's counter-intuitive to define
chapters like this, but it's not incoherent and doesn't cause inconsistencies.
You're just using the term in a way which would surprise the user - who may not
think of what they wrote as containing chapters. If stereotypical user
"Benjamin" is writing a short paper for school, Heading 1 paragraphs are the
heading paragraphs of the top-level sections of the paper, not the headings of
chapters.

It's also worth mentioning that if you choose that definition, then it's not
clear where we should even use this term; after all, you too agree Chapter
Numbering should revert back to using another name.

> * Outline is a concept of paragraphs having the associated levels, creating
> corresponding structure.

Indeed. But that contradicts - as a typical user would see it - your claimed
definition of a Heading paragraph.

> Trying to make it more complex, by mixing with so insanely complex matter as
> human language is (aggravated by translations, which multiply the associated
> meanings) is a mistake.

Unfortunately, LO is used by humans, and the UI is full of text in Human
language, so I don't quite see how you expect to "unmix" that.

Anyway, what's wrong with the following definitions (for English of course)?:

* "Outline paragraph" is a paragraph having an outline level other than "Text
Body".
* "Heading" is a paragraph with style "Heading", "Heading 1", "Heading 2" etc.
Perhaps some additional specific styles (e.g. "Title").
* "Chapter" will be unused/undefined by LO Writer, as we don't seem to have
facilities specific to chapters in books as opposed to Heading/Outline
paragraphs.
* "Outline" is a concept of paragraphs having the associated levels, creating
corresponding structure.

and the menu item can either be "Outline Numbering" (my preference) or "Heading
Numbering" (which won't be an exact name but some might argue would better
attract users needing it) or "Outline/Heading Numbering".

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