[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI (see comment 67)

[bugzilla-daemon at bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501

--- Comment #115 from Eyal Rozenberg <eyalroz1 at gmx.com> ---
(In reply to Rafael Lima from comment #112)
> I agree with this point of view. Making the Tabbed UI should be a goal for
> to be achieved within 1 or 2 years. If we start prioritizing it today, maybe
> within 2 or 3 main releases we'll be able to make it the default.

If you want to make this argument, you need to address the objections of those
of us who are against it. Which you, so far, have not.

> Maybe we could bring this issue to the ESC so that future grants can be
> proposed to address Tabbed UI-related bugs and enhancements.

Again, you're speaking as though this has somehow been agreed. On the contrary
- you should refrain from lobbying the ESC for grant money; that would be a
misrepresentation of the discussion here.

(In reply to John Mills from comment #107)
John, I think in this latest reply you've provided the crux of your
perspective:

> The standard lets say is MSO

Excuse the capital letters, but: THE STANDARD IS NOT MSO, nor should it be. "Do
like MSO does" may be a reasonable fallback when we have no other alternative.
But we also know MSO gets some things wrong, UI-wise; and one of these things
is the switch to ribbons, which is more detrimental than beneficial to users.

> This is the critical part, the Tabbed UI provides an attractive (certainly
> on Linux) and familiar interface to users coming from other office suites

The menus + toolbars provide an attractive and familiar interface to such users
- as most desktop application software use menus and toolbars, and in fact so
do half or more of other office suites. I would concede that tabs "look more
attractive" - you get a larger canvas on which to represent your ideas - but
they make users fail to notice and find a lot of functionality. And a shiny
ribbon is  not a good enough reason to make this interface the default.

> such as MSO, OnlyOffice, Kingsoft, Softmaker to name a few.

You're naming the ones with tabs, and ignoring the others.

> if you were looking 50 to 10 years in to the future where do you
> think the desktop and online office space is going to be? Will there be
> consolidation? Will the desktop market shrink compared to online? Will MSO
> still be number one, will new competitors enter the market? The fact is we
> don't know for certain,

We know that, 30 years ago, desktop applications were using menu bars and
toolbars, and 30 years later, they still use menu bars and toolbars, mostly.
Ribbons are relatively unpopular. Another direction has been "smartphonish"
interface - no menu bar and a hamburger menu. That's nice for a phone, but
sucks for the desktop. Chrome, Firefox and Thunderbird have gone in this
direction (along with using web-page-like dialog replacements - and it has been
a degradation.

> but if trends continue then i think there will be an
> increased online presence and MSO will still be the most popular desktop
> client.

if trends continue, then and most applications would still use menu bars and
toolbars, while Microsoft will try out some more UI which may or may not be a
good idea.

> If they don't radically change their UI then the 'ribbon' will be 20
> + years old at that point and the type of UI used by LO 30 years old. 

Even older. But also note that if trends continue, there will still be few
ribbon apps and most free office suites will have menu bars and toolbars, not
ribbons.

> Just going by those numbers the current default UI paradigm used by LO will
> be hopelessly out of date

On the contrary. Going by those numbers LO will continue to be in vogue as it
is today. Of course, things may turn out differently: It may be the case that
in a decade or two, most apps are dumbed-down to smartphone-style interfaces.
If that happens, we should still not go down the same path.


> [u]nless there is
> emphasis and resources made available to correct these then nothing will
> happen and that stagnation is not healthy for the LO application and
> community in the longer term.

I hope you're not insinuating that not adopting your UI design preference
implies stagnation...

> There needs to be some strategic vision for where the UI needs to be

There is such a strategic vision: menu bar and toolbars. True, it's the
by-default vision, but to change it, proponents need to make a better argument
than "people who use MSO are used to it". Which is what I've also told Rafael,
above.

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