[Bug 162133] Tab stop of list contents increases then decreases in Roman numeral lists. Should be right-aligned.

[bugzilla-daemon at bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162133

Stéphane Guillou (stragu) <stephane.guillou at libreoffice.org> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
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                URL|                            |https://ask.libreoffice.org
                   |                            |/t/why-are-there-uneven-ind
                   |                            |entations-for-certain-numbe
                   |                            |red-lists/61350

--- Comment #13 from Stéphane Guillou (stragu) <stephane.guillou at libreoffice.org> ---
Thanks for the detailed explanation, Justin! Much appreciated.
(And please excuse my still-limited understanding in my response.)

(In reply to Justin L from comment #10)
> Created attachment 195513 [details]
> changeNumbering1.docx: forcing right-align when changing to Roman Numbering
> would be wrong!
Indeed, I didn't think of headings. It's easy to forget and/or misunderstand
how interlinked Heading paragraph styles and List styles are...
But changing the "Number" property in the Bullets and Numbering dialog doesn't 
change the Alignment property, and a Heading paragraph style uses the list
style "Heading Numbering" (which, as I understand it, is not listed in the List
styles on purpose and only controlled by Tools > Heading Numbering). So could
this ticket only concern non-heading lists created with the "Toggle" buttons
from the toolbar?

(In reply to Justin L from comment #9)
> The poor look for Roman Numerals does happen using LO's default font
> (Liberation size 12 font). However, using a different font (Carlito at 11pt
> – which is basically identical in size to Microsoft Office’s default use of
> Calibri 11pt), then Roman numbering fits.
But it eventually doesn't at higher numbers, stating at XVII, then jumps back
left at XIX.

> It quickly became evident that setting “good defaults” could only apply to
> entire lists – which consists of the list styles, and the locale-defined
> outlines. That is because these two categories define indenting/spacing for
> the ENTIRE LIST allowing all 9 sublevels to have uniform, aesthetic spacing.
> However, the testing in this report is not being done by setting an outline
> style. It is being done by changing only ONE LEVEL! That tool simply changes
> one type of numbering (which already has formatting) into another type. It
> would be incorrect to start changing the spacing or alignment formatting in
> this context, because then that level will be misaligned from its sublevels,
> and potentially destroy user-specified settings.
I didn't realise the toolbar's "Toggle" buttons didn't apply an predefined list
style. The Style Inspector made it look consistent with predefined list styles,
except for the "List Style Name" property which seems to be a random number
assigned when creating a hidden style on the fly?

> Humans generally want left-aligned or fully justified text content, so
> forcing right-aligned Roman numerals is usually not acceptable.
I'm not sure this is an universal truth that applies to this specific context:
I can imagine many users would like (_non-heading_) lists with the clean
"mirror" orientation that right-alignment provides.

> The entire
> list needs to be designed well to accommodate right-alignment.
Makes sense.

> Microsoft
> implicitly acknowledges this, since their graphic shows left-aligned Roman
> numerals.
Interesting!

> Despite this, Microsoft Office forces right alignment for Roman
> numerals, often with horrible results. So, forcing right or left alignment
> is a bad idea, and we should not follow Microsoft’s lead in this situation.
Indeed, your sample documents illustrate that.

> Lists are complicated, and it is a mistake to try to over-simply them.
Couldn't agree more now! :D

> We give the user nice, predefined outline choices, as well as a tool to easily
> adjust a level’s numbering type, but it is ultimately the user’s
> responsibility to customize the list according to their own arbitrary tastes.
So is your take that this ticket is "won't fix" / "not a bug", or you think
things could still be improved for those toggles?
e.g. is bug 156071 a sensible ask in your opinion?

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