<html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> </head> <body> <div dir="auto">I'm not sure exactly what Homebrew provides, and I'm not able to investigate it now.</div> <div dir="auto"><br> </div> <div dir="auto">Yes, using Mesa software rendering to fill the void left by Opengl deprecation makes <i>some</i> sense. But note is still software rendering, not GPU accelerated. And one needs to consider the x86 -> arm.</div> <div dir="auto"><br> </div> <div dir="auto">You could consider somehow integrating jogl with osmesa -- offscreen rendering -Mesa -- which builds and runs pretty much anywhere Mesa builds -- thereby bypassing the headaches of integrating with mac specifics technologies such as CGL and Cocoa</div> <div dir="auto"><br> </div> <div dir="auto">There are also other alternatives with considering, such as <a href="https://moltengl.com/moltengl/">https://moltengl.com/moltengl/</a></div> <div dir="auto"><br> </div> <div dir="auto"><br> </div> <div dir="auto">Jose</div> <div dir="auto"><br> </div> <div id="ms-outlook-mobile-signature" dir="auto">Get <a href="https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg"> Outlook for Android</a></div> <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1"> <div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Martin Pernollet <martin.pernollet@protonmail.com><br> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 2, 2022 1:31:43 AM<br> <b>To:</b> Jose Fonseca <jfonseca@vmware.com><br> <b>Cc:</b> mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org <mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: Enable OpenGL software rendering on macOS</font> <div> </div> </div> <div> <meta name="color-scheme" content="light dark"> <meta name="supported-color-schemes" content="light dark"> <style>  </style> <p class="x_external-email-banner"><b>⚠ External Email</b></p> <div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px">Hi Jose,</div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px">Many thanks for your answer.</div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px">JOGL classes enabling GL binding macOS all refer to CGL, so yes, I think I want to rely on CGL (there is however in JOGL a couple of classes allowing to work with X11, but they're used on Linux only).</div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px">I can't access the Apple M1 on which I built Mesa right now, but homebrew on another macOS provides libGL and not libGLX.</div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"> <p style="margin:0px; font:14px Monaco; color:rgb(244,244,244); background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.85)"> <span style="font-variant-ligatures:no-common-ligatures">ls /usr/local/Cellar/mesa/21.1.2/lib</span></p> <p style="margin:0px; font:14px Monaco; color:rgb(244,244,244); background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.85)"> <span style="font-variant-ligatures:no-common-ligatures">dri<span style="white-space:pre"> </span><span style="white-space:pre"></span><span style="white-space:pre"></span>libGL.dylib<span style="white-space:pre"> </span><span style="white-space:pre"></span>libGLESv1_CM.dylib<span style="white-space:pre"> </span>libGLESv2.dylib<span style="white-space:pre"> </span><span style="white-space:pre"></span>libglapi.dylib</span></p> <p style="margin:0px; font:14px Monaco; color:rgb(244,244,244); background-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.85)"> <span style="font-variant-ligatures:no-common-ligatures">libGL.1.dylib<span style="white-space:pre"> </span><span style="white-space:pre"></span>libGLESv1_CM.1.dylib<span style="white-space:pre"> </span>libGLESv2.2.dylib<span style="white-space:pre"> </span>libglapi.0.dylib<span style="white-space:pre"> </span>pkgconfig</span></p> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px">One motivation for enabling Mesa on macOS is actually the deprecated status of OpenGL. I would expect this software implementation of GL to simply provide an image to be copied to a native window/frame, without having to rely on CGL. Hence, one could continue working with simple OpenGL even if macOS doesn't provide such API.</div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px">Does it sound reasonable? </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px">Martin</div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div class="x_protonmail_signature_block" style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"> <div class="x_protonmail_signature_block-user x_protonmail_signature_block-empty"> </div> <div class="x_protonmail_signature_block-proton">Envoyé avec la messagerie sécurisée <a target="_blank" href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprotonmail.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjfonseca%40vmware.com%7Ccf822d69b6584b99c2cf08da2c163472%7Cb39138ca3cee4b4aa4d6cd83d9dd62f0%7C0%7C0%7C637870771135623243%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6Z%2F57xR0N3IsaozWf4yw1m26WsR9%2BgZthncH5LSlDqA%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://protonmail.com/" shash="MpiPCS5ySkr/LOg1kQxo1DyJDEMIpcJJfrT/xmsd/RgYwK1ksYk2mTPxCE5McgEKBEwgxevltHcbHfSNCo9YHbdI5f4zJEDxIq+foiQTYocoad/girKN+t+Ln6N+6QSHBr/aZ3exbnbDYLpXJEIvMlzT8U6Jo989Uu6xetAdqIw=" rel="noopener noreferrer"> ProtonMail</a>. </div> </div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><br> </div> <div class="x_protonmail_quote">------- Original Message -------<br> Le vendredi 29 avril 2022 à 16:08, Jose Fonseca <jfonseca@vmware.com> a écrit :<br> <br> <blockquote class="x_protonmail_quote" type="cite"> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> The difficulty with OpenGL on macOS is that all driver interfaces are both undocumented and deprecated.</div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> If you want to override the system OpenGL, you can use apitrace code as reference. There are two approaches:</div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <ol> <li><span>DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH <a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fapitrace%2Fapitrace%2Fblob%2Fmaster%2Fcli%2Fcli_trace.cpp&data=05%7C01%7Cjfonseca%40vmware.com%7Ccf822d69b6584b99c2cf08da2c163472%7Cb39138ca3cee4b4aa4d6cd83d9dd62f0%7C0%7C0%7C637870771135623243%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=waB1FKc7Gn18GlUCLfMdD6Nz4wLebDjWx4Yie3JOKHc%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://github.com/apitrace/apitrace/blob/master/cli/cli_trace.cpp" shash="izN0Qo+E6ZNjT0b3uoAnRRzTA2X4qOxCwPRTgdJeimpF29t13ZS+8M84OmT6z5LV5u+3/XJrm6MDQCzBSsB4L1fNV2FlrVcstdlZWNCOLBi3ZppmRbb/1TuFqcJuR4LoWA9L/54rKySSXSSHWAEm838BNZF3st+wfepFN3I7EXM=" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://github.com/apitrace/apitrace/blob/master/cli/cli_trace.cpp</a></span></li><li class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> DYLD_INSERT_LIBRARIES <a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fapitrace%2Fapitrace%2Ftree%2Fdyld-interpose&data=05%7C01%7Cjfonseca%40vmware.com%7Ccf822d69b6584b99c2cf08da2c163472%7Cb39138ca3cee4b4aa4d6cd83d9dd62f0%7C0%7C0%7C637870771135623243%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=BTTHs0fiFhz0NYc3UGY2rd9R25Ak%2FFwZ8paNMOFUBfQ%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://github.com/apitrace/apitrace/tree/dyld-interpose" shash="vlMz1ss4JsyXLLJWDpO63EwLIHYlHJlK43r+lZpQGCtcup+3qEe6LeevghJj6b3XhokXWkm7LE2CWOKEMRnLMvoWUZH4i0d/v0N3E+1ASYdUz/XBHeS+y/RNXW4mMiYpxnAabE2LYPyCqxUGMe1i9v6UYPkAtejrPgLtiuSlm+k=" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">https://github.com/apitrace/apitrace/tree/dyld-interpose</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt"> (experimental branch)</span></li></ol> <div> </div> </div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> AFAIK, Mesa build for macOS generates a ibGLX which depends on X11, which is probably not what you want. You want to use Mesa for macOS apps which use CGL as opposed to GLX, right?</div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> So, if one wants to have a SW renderer on macOS with llvmpipe without depending on X11, then one would need to implement:</div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <ul> <li>a new <a title="https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/tree/main/src/gallium/frontends" href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgitlab.freedesktop.org%2Fmesa%2Fmesa%2F-%2Ftree%2Fmain%2Fsrc%2Fgallium%2Ffrontends&data=05%7C01%7Cjfonseca%40vmware.com%7Ccf822d69b6584b99c2cf08da2c163472%7Cb39138ca3cee4b4aa4d6cd83d9dd62f0%7C0%7C0%7C637870771135623243%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZwSCisd3BxsnoFrHoB5HiWC4FSNf%2BZoooSIUZtCA8us%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/tree/main/src/gallium/frontends" shash="Rj6lhTgtb5zzExMT5cxglDrNFFi9B+p0a8bEo9A8o1mUpMXv7dOpWkOVKxNc27t/OcoSQLDXnOshUODkpNJdDvwIRfLA3mwXe93MVdHioafDVzeEIc3MukI2QArLaDDQyN/SJRt0zFOD5KvDgputv8YfauY9goQiDTmV6/juqfc=" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank"> Gallium frontend</a> that implements CGL API (equivalent to the WGL frontend that exists for Windows)</li><li>a new <a title="https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/tree/main/src/gallium/winsys" href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgitlab.freedesktop.org%2Fmesa%2Fmesa%2F-%2Ftree%2Fmain%2Fsrc%2Fgallium%2Fwinsys&data=05%7C01%7Cjfonseca%40vmware.com%7Ccf822d69b6584b99c2cf08da2c163472%7Cb39138ca3cee4b4aa4d6cd83d9dd62f0%7C0%7C0%7C637870771135623243%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=LbCV6VokVNeXv8g3%2BzYI6oZWZ0Esq3GomTfuZC0pV0Y%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/tree/main/src/gallium/winsys" shash="YR5i7W1pZJD4RYkeyvQDevA1DMDR+iv41aglCSxe+KkJKpC+DUv/wH+TN7PYU+JKQtme7skgInkJh7SInX2mqaEpgjO1dHrpITWtNemp1GHutfmAuqOGpcMUgEwd6dX6rPSEiocHwut9Fb8gRc12rkaEeCk72hBgs9/EjiFysKw=" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank"> SW renderer winsys</a> that draws pixels to Cocoa window somehow (equivalent to the GDI winsys that draws to a Windows GDI surface) </li></ul> </div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> It's not a matter of just integrating existing components together -- there's lot of new code that would be need here -- I'd reckon 2 months for somebody familiar with Mesa/macOS, 6 - 12 months for somebody more novice. And let's be frank, given mac deprecation of OpenGL and migration away from Intel to Arm, the usefulness of this in the long term is dubious.</div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div class="x_elementToProof" style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Jose</div> <div id="x_appendonsend"></div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%"> <div dir="ltr" id="x_divRplyFwdMsg"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> mesa-dev <mesa-dev-bounces@lists.freedesktop.org> on behalf of Martin Pernollet <martin.pernollet@protonmail.com><br> <b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 29, 2022 12:32<br> <b>To:</b> mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org <mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org><br> <b>Subject:</b> Enable OpenGL software rendering on macOS</font> <div> </div> </div> <div> <p class="x_x_external-email-banner" style="background-color:rgb(255,229,201); color:black; font-family:Metropolis,"Clarity City",sans-serif; font-size:14px; border-radius:4px; padding:8px; margin:24px 0px; background-color:rgb(255,229,201); color:black; font-family:Metropolis,"Clarity City",sans-serif; font-size:14px; border-radius:4px; padding:8px; margin:24px 0px"> <b>⚠ External Email</b></p> <div> <div style="font-family:arial; font-size:14px"><span>TLDR : I failed using Mesa software rendering on macOS. I am looking for advice to invoke mesa's libGL.dylib without relying on macOS's system GL.</span> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>Hi everyone,</div> <div><br> </div> <div>I am building (java) software involving Mesa for CPU rendering. I use CPU rendering as fallback when JOGL (OpenGL binding for Java) fail to use the GPU natively. This is sometime the case for old Linux distributions, this will certainly be frequent on macOS in the future due to Apple's OpenGL deprecation.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Mesa CPU rendering is working great on Ubuntu (by enabling LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=true) and Windows (by simply loading Mesa's DLL instead of system DLL, no need to ask for software mode).</div> <div><br> </div> <div>I however thrive to use<span> </span><b>Mesa's software rendering on macOS<span> </span></b>for the following reasons</div> <div> <div> <ul style="margin:0px; padding:0px 0px 0px 2em; font-size:1em"> <li><span><span></span>Spying dynamic library load sequence shows that whenever Mesa's libGL.dylib is loaded, Apple Metal and libGL.dylib are loaded before, even when using DYLD tricks to ensure Mesa get loaded before any other library (except the Java VM) [1] <span>Someone says that Mesa's macOS implementation relies on system GL [4].<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!important"> I noticed that when enabling <span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!important">LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=true, this activates Apple software rendering but not Mesa's software rendering [5].</span> </span></span></span>I wonder how I could avoid this and use a pure Mesa's OpenGL implementation in this situation. </li><li><span>When getting out of the java World</span></li><ul style="margin:0px; padding:0px 0px 0px 2em"> <li><span>Running a pre-built glxgear/glxinfo installed through MacPorts only allows using Apple's libGL.dylib but not Mesa's libGL.dylib [2]. </span></li><li><span>Building glxinfo myself by linking explicitely to Mesa's GL + X11 lead to an X11 error that I am not able to depict [3].</span></li></ul> </ul> <div><span><br> </span></div> </div> <div><span>This has been discussed already on Khronos community [1] but I have no clue how to go further. I hope some experts here can help me solve this!</span></div> <div><span><br> </span></div> <div><span>Thanks in advance,</span></div> <div><span><br> </span></div> <div><span>Martin</span></div> <div><span><br> </span></div> <div><span>[1] <span><a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.khronos.org%2Ft%2Ffailing-to-load-mesa3d-on-macos-instead-of-macos-provided-opengl-library%2F108408&data=05%7C01%7Cjfonseca%40vmware.com%7Ccf822d69b6584b99c2cf08da2c163472%7Cb39138ca3cee4b4aa4d6cd83d9dd62f0%7C0%7C0%7C637870771135623243%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0wHMo5S1MIAAizfD2%2BQ88ihk6uUSjfftZ37dVnLmnBg%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://community.khronos.org/t/failing-to-load-mesa3d-on-macos-instead-of-macos-provided-opengl-library/108408" shash="WJVKjSBm423FUf30yltmyKARg/oY8rVDYv6vh2P1L87J+PCrRtHEXolpjGzwJAP06qUBl9KWx0sn+NCemFsruMVQ0UsYARy9ryAYSAMhefu5V3RKeVLaKy0HW4VelQgm0ixAQikdiDEgf129TqP04o47GFKCqYjBoTcvhpln4eQ=" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank" style="text-decoration:underline">https://community.khronos.org/t/failing-to-load-mesa3d-on-macos-instead-of-macos-provided-opengl-library/108408</a></span></span></div> <div><span>[2] <span><a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.khronos.org%2Ft%2Ffailing-to-load-mesa3d-on-macos-instead-of-macos-provided-opengl-library%2F108408%2F14&data=05%7C01%7Cjfonseca%40vmware.com%7Ccf822d69b6584b99c2cf08da2c163472%7Cb39138ca3cee4b4aa4d6cd83d9dd62f0%7C0%7C0%7C637870771135623243%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VRQpXUHfDEMs%2BI1A%2F%2FIt%2Ft7cFKQKb6zsA5duCBohMCk%3D&reserved=0" 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