[Openicc] new: Proof colour space setting
Kai-Uwe Behrmann
ku.b at gmx.de
Wed May 3 16:35:15 PDT 2006
Jeffrey,
the proofing profile does not create a complete transformation line. It
will be used together with other specified profiles.
There are no plans yet to handle proofing on the OS level or by a specific
toolkit.
CS behaves like an autonom colour management system.
If OpenOffice or KDE would decide to do the same, we would watch maybe
a situation, where the application or suite would handle things
independent of the OS. It would not be necessary for users to leave
this suite as they can handle all colour management inside. The OS is then
just handling hardware drivers and rights and internet. I dont think there
is a well designed plan for creating a similiar application suite like CS.
Open source development goes currently other ways.
regards
Kai-Uwe Behrmann
+ development for color management
+ imaging / panoramas
+ email: ku.b at gmx.de
+ http://www.behrmann.name
Am 03.05.06, 12:03 -0400 schrieb Jeffrey Cunningham:
> I don't think one profile is able to proof on screen and print. Or I
> don't understand what's being asked.
>
> Right now, for hard proofing, the image would be converted from the
> input or working space (optionally to the working space) to the target
> device space to the proofer space.
> ScannerProfile.icc --> AdobeRGB.icc
> AdobeRGB.icc --> PressProfile.icc
> PressProfile.icc --> ProoferProfile.icc (swap your
> MonitorProfile.icc for ProoferProfiler.icc and now you're soft
> proofing)
>
> The target device and proofer are specific to the devices you are
> working with, so the profiles are too. You could combine one or more of
> these profiles into a linked profile. Trying to make this more generic
> by creating an output device based equilvalent to sRGB doesn't sound
> appealing to me.
>
> Or, are you simply suggesting that there should be a place in the UI for
> the user to specify their ProoferProfile? If the OS doesn't do this,
> then it makes sense to handle it at the application level. OS X is the
> only one that I know of that lets you specify a proofer profile at the
> OS level. However, I don't know of any applications that ask ColorSync
> for the default proofer profile. You have to specify these default
> profiles with the ColorSync Utility, which may be confusing for some
> users.
>
> If we're just talking about soft proofing, I like Photoshop's
> implementation. See http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/profiles.htm or
> http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/techsupport/photoshop6-tutorial.html .
>
>
> -Jeff Cunningham
>
>
>
> Kai-Uwe Behrmann wrote:
>
> >Hello Ann and all,
> >
> >the idea of mine was to define a system wide proofing colour space, a
> >profile, which can be used by applications as a predefined and optional
> >activated profile for poofing on screen and print out. The proofing
> >profile settings set and activate the simulation of a film stock or a
> >intended printing condition (SWOP/ISOcoated).
> >
> >Your idea is more about a single colour space, like PhotoGamut(?), in
> >differenence to a general system setting.
> >
> >Sorry if my head line was missleading you. I changed the head therefore.
> >
> >Of course feel free to continue this interessting toppic.
> >
> >
> >For the "proofing profile setting", hope this makes a difference now, I
> >decided to add it to the Oyranos configuration settings.
> >
> >kind regards
> >Kai-Uwe Behrmann
> > + development for color management
> > + imaging / panoramas
> > + email: ku.b at gmx.de
> > + http://www.behrmann.name
> >
> >
> >Am 02.05.06, 14:36 -0400 schrieb almccart at lexmark.com:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi Jan-Peter and all,
> >>
> >>I would agree that it needs to be a free choosable color space that is
> >>independent of
> >>scanner, camera, monitor, types of RGB spaces and that is also independent
> >>of any
> >>particular CMYK. Note that Adobe RGB is a monitor type of RGB even though
> >>it is
> >>wide gamut.
> >>
> >>Yes - I was thinking that a proofing color space would be an intermediate
> >>between the
> >>source color spaces [e.g., Adobe RGB, camera Raw RGB] and particular print
> >>related
> >>output spaces. One question is how constrained should the gamut be?
> >>Should it be
> >>limited to a SWOP-like gamut? Or be like the ISO reference gamut - which
> >>is a bit larger.
> >>Another way of thinking about it is -- Would you want a proofing color
> >>space to contain
> >>the Pantone colors? Or to be limited to a subset of Pantone colors as many
> >>real print
> >>systems are?
> >>
> >>I think you got the idea I was putting forth. My question is - is that
> >>what you and Kai-Uwe
> >>had in mind?
> >>
> >>Best regards,
> >>Ann McCarthy
> >>Lexmark CPD
> >>Imaging Systems Engineering
> >>ICC Workflow WG Chair
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Jan-Peter Homann <homann at colormanagement.de>
> >>05/02/2006 01:41 PM
> >>Please respond to homann
> >>
> >>
> >> To: almccart at lexmark.com, OpenICC Liste <openicc at lists.freedesktop.org>
> >> cc:
> >> Subject: Re: [Openicc] new: Proof colour space
> >>
> >>
> >>Hello Ann, and all,
> >>Nice to hear, that leading ICC members are reading and posting to the
> >>openICC list :-)
> >>
> >>I think, your answer is two steps ahead, of the mail of Kai-Uwe.
> >>As I understand him, he want the possibility of a free choosable
> >>proofing colorspace independent from the RGB- or CMYK-workingspace in
> >>ICC aware open source applications.
> >>
> >>As I understand your concept of an "proofing colorspace" as an
> >>intermediate colorspace between widegamut colorspaces like
> >>camera-profiles on RAW data or AdobeRGB and printoutput.
> >>
> >>Finetuning of colors and saturation is done in the "proofing
> >>colorspace", if the work is done, gamutmapping from "proofing
> >>colorspace" to print output colorspace needs and can be done either with
> >>relatice colorinteric and blackpoint-comepnesation or with ICCv4
> >>perceptual gamutmapping, if the gamut of the "proofing colorspace" is
> >>similar of a better "reference medium gamut" for ICCv4 profiles.
> >>
> >>Do I understand your intentions correct ?
> >>
> >>:-) Jan-Peter
> >>
> >>almccart at lexmark.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hello Jan-Peter and all,
> >>>
> >>>So -- if we were to define a 'proofing colorspace' what would the
> >>>requirements be?
> >>>For example:
> >>>1. RGB encoding
> >>>2. Encompassing and similar in shape to the ISO printing gamut defined
> >>>in ISO 12640-3 Annex B
> >>>3. Not significantly larger than the ISO printing gamut defined in ISO
> >>>12640-3 Annex B
> >>>4. Unambiguously defined transformations to/from CIE XYZ
> >>>5. Primaries placed so that if the file is incorrectly assumed to be
> >>>sRGB, severe hue shifts do not occur.
> >>>6. Primaries placed so that HVS response to tone and hue adjustments are
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>reasonably homogeneous
> >>>throughout the space [i.e., perceptual isometry].
> >>>7. Adapted white point, color space white point and black point
> >>>chromaticity = D50
> >>>8. Print-referred image state
> >>>9. Adapted white point and color space white point luminance: 160 cd/m^2
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [=ICC PCS]
> >>>10. Image surround - 20% of adapted white point
> >>>...?
> >>>
> >>>Does this represent a good initial list of attributes?
> >>>Is there an existing public domain RGB that meets these criteria?
> >>>
> >>>Best regards,
> >>>Ann McCarthy
> >>>Lexmark CPD
> >>>Imaging Systems Engineering
> >>>ICC Workflow WG Chair
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Jan-Peter Homann <homann at colormanagement.de>*
> >>>Sent by: openicc-bounces at lists.freedesktop.org
> >>>
> >>>05/02/2006 07:41 AM
> >>>Please respond to homann
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To: Kai-Uwe Behrmann <ku.b at gmx.de>
> >>> cc: OpenICC Liste <openicc at lists.freedesktop.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Openicc] new: Proof colour space
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Hello list,
> >>>A proofing colorspace would be very helpful.
> >>>I know several photostudios, which are dealing with agencies, prepress
> >>>bureaus and print shops.
> >>>
> >>>They are working in RGB and deliver RGB and CMYK-Files (ISOcoated) to
> >>>their clients.
> >>>
> >>>Before they are converting to CMYK (ISOcoated) with relative
> >>>colorimetric and blackpoint compensation, they do a proof and optimize
> >>>the RGB-file, if colorclipping of saturated colors are occuring.
> >>>
> >>>The goal is to build an archive of RGB-files, where all RGB-files can be
> >>>converted relative colorimetric with blackpoint compensation to the main
> >>> destination colorspace, without the need to make image by image
> >>>analysis , which rendering intent fits best.
> >>>
> >>>Most uzsers I know prefer to have a special menue for softproofing,
> >>>instead of doing it in the colorsetting file.
> >>>
> >>>Very helpful is also, if the softproof menue is synchronized with the
> >>>menue "convert to profile"
> >>>
> >>>If the softproof is OK, the file can be converted to the destination
> >>>colorspace with one mouseclick.
> >>>
> >>>:-) Jan-Peter
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Kai-Uwe Behrmann wrote:
> >>> > Hello list,
> >>> >
> >>> > what would you think about a dedicated proof colour space?
> >>> >
> >>> > The current situation in CinePaint is: we have RGB/Cmyk image data
> >>>and can
> >>> > proof them to whatever colour space on screen. If someone wants to
> >>> > simulate an special output device like a film stock or a print media,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>it
> >>
> >>
> >>> > seems there is no sense by sticking to the editing colour spaces
> >>> > (RGB/Cmyk). It is not clear if the user wants a RGB or Cmyk colour
> >>>
> >>>
> >>space
> >>
> >>
> >>> > to proof against.
> >>> >
> >>> > It could as well mean the proofing options should become a separate
> >>> > advanced configuration group.
> >>> >
> >>> > Whats the opinion on the list about this matter?
> >>> >
> >>> > regards
> >>> > Kai-Uwe Behrmann
> >>> > + development for color management
> >>> > + imaging / panoramas
> >>> > + email: ku.b at gmx.de
> >>> > + http://www.behrmann.name
> >>>
> >>>
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