[systemd-devel] Antw: Re: [EXT] Re: Using timedatectl on a readonly rootfile system using mender

[Ulrich Windl]

>>> Shravan Singh <shravan at bluesparq.com> schrieb am 08.09.2020 um 15:31 in
Nachricht
<CABjzrPQwOMpc02M2ZVzRjY6OjVgBR2QJMtYhfZ1etBeYsu_mgg at mail.gmail.com>:
> No one is answering a simple question. Why we have to guard timezone so
> much?.
> Why can't I change it? What happens if I change it on a read-only rootfs? I
> am breaking the whole systemd by doing this?
> 
> In fact most of the people in this group are suggesting a work-around to me
> 
> "I wonder: If you have a working pull request, why don't you use that code
> and be happy with it? That's how free software works.
> Still everybody interested can apply you patch."
> 
> Yes, it works. My question is why is not getting included so that everyone
> can benefit from it. That is how a free software community should work.

I think the poroble is: You think your patch is great and everybody wants that. However you are not everybody, and so you have to let others decide whether they like the feature or not. Many times dome developers thing a feature is great, but it actually fails. Just think of the user interface of Windows 8...

> 
> In this day and age of mobile computing it is really shocking to see. That
> timezone is not regarded as something that can be dynamically changed.

You are mixing things: With your android phone you can change timezones, but you have created a special setup where anothe rspecial patch is needed. A bit like first shooting your own foot and then calling for a doctor, wondering why not everybody is needing a doctor...

This is just my opinion, not everybodys. ;-)

Regards,
Ulrich

> 
> Anyway this issue is going no-further if people are adamant in not changing
> it.
> And I don't see any reason in going back and forth with everyone.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Shravan Singh
> (239) 243-0838
> 
> Blue Sparq, Inc.
> 928 NE 24th Lane unit 4 and 5.
> Cape Coral, FL 33993
> 
> IMPORTANT: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential.
> They are intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received
> this email by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and do not
> disclose the contents to anyone or make copies thereof.
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:49 AM Ulrich Windl <
> Ulrich.Windl at rz.uni-regensburg.de> wrote:
> 
>> >>> Shravan Singh <shravan at bluesparq.com> schrieb am 05.09.2020 um 00:26
>> in
>> Nachricht
>> <CABjzrPR=7mwZFwmz6OVeGVi+3GJC24dcxos4gK_SK-kxD91XhQ at mail.gmail.com>:
>> > And this is a major problem for any one running raspberry pi, NXP or any
>> > other embedded processor that uses mender and embedded linux.
>>
>> Maybe an embedded OS really should use UTC as timezone.
>>
>> > A machine with embedded linux running on it goes to San Francisco and
>> then
>> > transported to Chicago.
>> > And you are saying that we shouldn't be allowed to change the timezone?
>>
>> The question is : Who will "see" the timezone? Does every process run with
>> the same timezone?
>>
>> > Just because you are not "convinced"
>> > Does this group have a poll system? Let's put this to poll and see?
>>
>> I wonder: If you have a working pull request, why don't you use that code
>> and be happy with it? That's how free software works.
>> Still everybody interested can apply you patch.
>> >
>> > I have tried having a rational explanation with you but your attitude is
>> > just appalling
>> >
>> > I have tried this solution and it works
>> > https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/8277.
>> > I just don't understand why you are not willing to accept this. And
>> provide
>> > a solution to all the people using raspberry pi and or embedded
>> processors?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Shravan Singh
>> > (239) 243-0838
>> >
>> > Blue Sparq, Inc.
>> > 928 NE 24th Lane unit 4 and 5.
>> > Cape Coral, FL 33993
>> >
>> > IMPORTANT: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>> confidential.
>> > They are intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received
>> > this email by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and do not
>> > disclose the contents to anyone or make copies thereof.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 6:16 PM Shravan Singh <shravan at bluesparq.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> What constitutes a configuration?
>> >> And please read my email subject. I can't have writable /etc, mender
>> >> dosen't allow that.
>> >>
>> >> In today's mobile computing age you really think users shouldn't change
>> >> timezone?
>> >> You keep saying " I for one am certainly not convinced that the
>> timezones"
>> >> but you don't explain why?
>> >> Are you looking at this system as a static machine? That can never
>> change
>> >> timezone?
>> >>
>> >> And please don't use profanity. I have not and you shouldn't either.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Shravan Singh
>> >> (239) 243-0838
>> >>
>> >> Blue Sparq, Inc.
>> >> 928 NE 24th Lane unit 4 and 5.
>> >> Cape Coral, FL 33993
>> >>
>> >> IMPORTANT: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>> >> confidential. They are intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you
>> >> have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender
>> immediately
>> >> and do not disclose the contents to anyone or make copies thereof.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 6:05 PM Lennart Poettering <
>> lennart at poettering.net>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Fr, 04.09.20 15:54, Shravan Singh (shravan at bluesparq.com) wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> > Yes, But help me understand.
>> >>> > I think you said that you are not convinced as to why that has to
>> done.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > My argument is very simple shouldn't a Linux environment allow
>> change in
>> >>> > timezone easily?
>> >>>
>> >>> Oh we do. But if your want configuration to be changable, then mount
>> >>> /etc writable.
>> >>>
>> >>> You have two contradicting goals: you want immutable config, but then
>> >>> you want to change config. So how's that gonna work?
>> >>>
>> >>> If you want your persistent config changable then make it changable,
>> >>> i.e. mount /etc/ writable.
>> >>>
>> >>> > Now I am not an expert in Linux kernel development. But I see that
>> some
>> >>> of
>> >>> > the files, even though they reside in /etc  are linked to file in
>> /run
>> >>> > Like *resolv.conf.  *Which allows dynamic changes.
>> >>>
>> >>> I explained this already. DNS server data today is much less config
>> >>> than state, acquired dynamically via DHCP, hence most distros don#t
>> >>> configure it in /etc so much anymore, but manage it in /run (where
>> >>> transient state is generally kept), and only keep a compat symlink in
>> >>> /etc. If you try to convince people though that the local timezone
>> >>> should just be transient state and not persistent config you'll have a
>> >>> hard time. I for one am certainly not convinced that the timezones are
>> >>> state...
>> >>>
>> >>> I mean, the line between persistent configuration and transient state
>> >>> is blurry, but in the case of DNS settings and timezone settings I
>> >>> certainly can draw a line easily.
>> >>>
>> >>> > timezone activity change is a very basic change one that needs to be
>> >>> > supported by the system. Why guard it with so much.
>> >>>
>> >>> We don't do that. Just make /etc/ writable ffs, if you want stuff in
>> >>> /etc to be changable.
>> >>>
>> >>> Lennart
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Lennart Poettering, Berlin
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>>