Touchpad on an XPS 13 9360

Wed May 3 22:41:34 UTC 2017

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Peter Hutterer <peter.hutterer at who-t.net>
wrote:

> fwiw, this stuff would be better on a public mailing list, so others can
> learn too.

OK.  :)  Adding the public list back on here.

>
> On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 07:47:31AM -0500, Michael Wisniewski wrote:
> > Peter,
> >
> > I hope you don't mind me asking a couple more questions; you seem to be
> an
> > expert on this topic.  :) On my XPS13, for whatever reason, there are two
> > touchpads; a Synaptic one and a " DLL075B:01 06CB:76AF Touchpad" one.
> Many
> > of the articles I've read said that you should disable the Synaptic
> > touchpad or else bad things happen.  Just for kicks, I tried to disable
> the
> >  DLL075B:01 06CB:76AF Touchpad one and the touchpad didn't work at all.
> > Disable the synaptic one and the touchpad works.
>
> I'd like to see those articles, because, well, that's just plain BS. The
> devices are the same touchpad, the only difference is whether the kernel
> talks to the device over ps2 ("Synaptics...") or over i2c ("DLL0...").
> Because of the way modules are loaded in the kernel, you always get the ps2
> device, then the kernel tries i2c and if it works you get the DLL0 device.
> But once the touchpad is initialized over i2c, it won't send events over
> the
> ps2 event node, that device is simply mute. Disabling it or not has no
> effects on the events.
>

You're right with this, but just having the synaptics (ps2) device and
disabling the DLL0 device makes the touchpad not work.  Now mind you, I did
this though xorg configs....I'm wondering what would happen if I
blacklisted the i2c_hid that drives the i2c touchpad.  Here's the bug
report that kind of talks about it.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1591669

>
> > In any case, when I execute 'xinput list-props' while using the Synaptic
> > driver, there are a ton of properties that can be set.  If I use the
> > libinput driver, there are nearly not as many options available.  I'm
> > wondering if maybe part of my problem is that it's not reading all the
> > available options for my touchpad.  Just as an example, I have "Device
> > Accel Constant Deceleration (266): 2.500000" when using the Synaptic
> driver
> > but not the libinput one.
>
> libinput doesn't have the same number of config options, that's expected.
> a bunch of things that synaptics has options for are set within libinput.
>
> https://who-t.blogspot.com.au/2016/04/why-libinput-doesnt-ha
> ve-lot-of-config.html
>
> so yeah, afacit everything works fine here.
>

I saw your blog late yesterday and it helped explain a number of things,
why it doesn't have a lot of config options is one of them.

I have another laptop that has an ALPS touchpad using libinput and it feels
wonderful.  Everything about moving the cursor/pointer around on the screen
seems right.  On this XPS13, it seems like I've been struggling with it for
a few days now.  I would say that the issue I'm having is with very small
movements....it's like you move your finger quickly to the area you want to
click, start to slow down, then move your finger slowly the rest of the way
to that point.  I have the problem where when you slowly move it around to
that point, it doesn't react smoothly.

I read another message by you somewhere else giving instructions on how one
might be able to submit data that was collected throughout the day to help
improve libinput.  Would you be open to taking a look at the data if I
collected it throughout the day?

Thanks,
Mike

>
> Cheers,
>    Peter
>
> > Is libinput maybe not seeing the " DLL075B:01 06CB:76AF Touchpad" as a
> > synaptic touchpad and maybe not getting all the available options for it?
> > Here's a list of 'list-props' from libinput and synaptics when I ran
> it...
> >
> >
> > ----using the synaptics driver---
> > Device 'DLL075B:01 06CB:76AF Touchpad':
> > Device Enabled (137): 1
> > Coordinate Transformation Matrix (139): 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000,
> > 0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000
> > Device Accel Profile (265): 1
> > Device Accel Constant Deceleration (266): 2.500000
> > Device Accel Adaptive Deceleration (267): 1.000000
> > Device Accel Velocity Scaling (268): 12.500000
> > Synaptics Edges (269): 48, 1168, 36, 644
> > Synaptics Finger (270): 25, 30, 0
> > Synaptics Tap Time (271): 180
> > Synaptics Tap Move (272): 61
> > Synaptics Tap Durations (273): 180, 100, 100
> > Synaptics ClickPad (274): 1
> > Synaptics Middle Button Timeout (275): 0
> > Synaptics Two-Finger Pressure (276): 282
> > Synaptics Two-Finger Width (277): 7
> > Synaptics Scrolling Distance (278): 27, 27
> > Synaptics Edge Scrolling (279): 1, 0, 0
> > Synaptics Two-Finger Scrolling (280): 1, 0
> > Synaptics Move Speed (281): 1.000000, 1.750000, 0.143575, 0.000000
> > Synaptics Off (282): 1
> > Synaptics Locked Drags (283): 0
> > Synaptics Locked Drags Timeout (284): 5000
> > Synaptics Tap Action (285): 2, 3, 0, 0, 1, 3, 0
> > Synaptics Click Action (286): 1, 3, 0
> > Synaptics Circular Scrolling (287): 0
> > Synaptics Circular Scrolling Distance (288): 0.100000
> > Synaptics Circular Scrolling Trigger (289): 0
> > Synaptics Circular Pad (290): 0
> > Synaptics Palm Detection (291): 0
> > Synaptics Palm Dimensions (292): 10, 200
> > Synaptics Coasting Speed (293): 20.000000, 50.000000
> > Synaptics Pressure Motion (294): 30, 160
> > Synaptics Pressure Motion Factor (295): 1.000000, 1.000000
> > Synaptics Resolution Detect (296): 1
> > Synaptics Grab Event Device (297): 0
> > Synaptics Gestures (298): 1
> > Synaptics Capabilities (299): 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0
> > Synaptics Pad Resolution (300): 12, 12
> > Synaptics Area (301): 0, 0, 0, 0
> > Synaptics Soft Button Areas (302): 608, 0, 557, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
> > Synaptics Noise Cancellation (303): 6, 6
> > Device Product ID (261): 1739, 30383
> > Device Node (260): "/dev/input/event14"
> >
> > -------using libinput------------------
> >
> > Device 'DLL075B:01 06CB:76AF Touchpad':
> > Device Enabled (137): 1
> > Coordinate Transformation Matrix (139): 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000,
> > 0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000
> > libinput Tapping Enabled (273): 1
> > libinput Tapping Enabled Default (274): 0
> > libinput Tapping Drag Enabled (275): 1
> > libinput Tapping Drag Enabled Default (276): 1
> > libinput Tapping Drag Lock Enabled (277): 0
> > libinput Tapping Drag Lock Enabled Default (278): 0
> > libinput Accel Speed (279): 0.000000
> > libinput Accel Speed Default (280): 0.000000
> > libinput Natural Scrolling Enabled (281): 0
> > libinput Natural Scrolling Enabled Default (282): 0
> > libinput Send Events Modes Available (257): 1, 1
> > libinput Send Events Mode Enabled (258): 0, 0
> > libinput Send Events Mode Enabled Default (259): 0, 0
> > libinput Left Handed Enabled (283): 0
> > libinput Left Handed Enabled Default (284): 0
> > libinput Scroll Methods Available (285): 1, 1, 0
> > libinput Scroll Method Enabled (286): 1, 0, 0
> > libinput Scroll Method Enabled Default (287): 1, 0, 0
> > libinput Click Methods Available (288): 1, 1
> > libinput Click Method Enabled (289): 1, 0
> > libinput Click Method Enabled Default (290): 1, 0
> > libinput Middle Emulation Enabled (291): 0
> > libinput Middle Emulation Enabled Default (292): 0
> > libinput Disable While Typing Enabled (293): 1
> > libinput Disable While Typing Enabled Default (294): 1
> > Device Node (260): "/dev/input/event14"
> > Device Product ID (261): 1739, 30383
> > libinput Drag Lock Buttons (295): <no items>
> > libinput Horizonal Scroll Enabled (262): 1
> > ----
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 11:39 PM, Peter Hutterer <
> peter.hutterer at who-t.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > [weird, I wrote this email but it never got sent. well, better late
> than
> > > never :)]
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 07:38:50PM -0500, Michael Wisniewski wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Peter Hutterer <
> > > peter.hutterer at who-t.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 04:06:20PM -0500, Michael Wisniewski wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Peter Hutterer <
> > > > > peter.hutterer at who-t.net>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 04:14:05PM -0500, Michael Wisniewski
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hi!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > First, I hope that this is the correct place to post, as I'm
> not
> > > > > really a
> > > > > > > > developer, but don't know where else to go.  I'm running
> Ubuntu
> > > Gnome
> > > > > > > 16.10
> > > > > > > > and using the libinput that is packaged with Ubuntu.  I
> *think*
> > > It's
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > 1.6 version, but I really don't know and that's actually one
> of
> > > my
> > > > > > > > questions...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My first question is...how do you find which version of
> libinput
> > > > > you're
> > > > > > > > using?  The package manager shows a 1.4.3-0ubuntu1, while the
> > > > > object's
> > > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > is "libinput.so.10.9.4" and xinput --list shows version
> 1.6.2.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ignore the soname, it does not reflect a package version
> (well, I
> > > can
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > back to the version based on the soname, but it should be
> ignored
> > > > > > > otherwise). That is true for any library btw.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > xinput --version can't get to the libinput version, it's too
> far
> > > > > removed,
> > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > you can ignore anything xinput spits out too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > libinput-list-devices --version gives you the libinput version,
> > > quick
> > > > > > > google
> > > > > > > says ubuntu ships 1.4.3. we're currently up to 1.7, so anything
> > > earlier
> > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > 1.6 isn't going to be very accurate, sorry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I then tried to compile the latest libinput version from the
> git
> > > > > repo and
> > > > > > > > follow the instructions on the building libinput wiki page,
> but
> > > that
> > > > > > > > version still shows 1.6.2.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ultimately, my issue is trying to get my touchpad to work
> better
> > > on
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > laptop.  Under XUbuntu, I'm using the synaptics driver, which
> > > works
> > > > > good,
> > > > > > > > but still has some small nuances.  It also seems like the
> > > Synaptics
> > > > > > > driver
> > > > > > > > is going away, which is why I'm looking at moving over to
> > > libinput.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Unfortunately though, with libinput, I can adjust the
> > > acceleration
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > the sensitivity.  I would say that everything works OK until
> you
> > > try
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > make small movements to pinpoint something, then the cursor
> jumps
> > > > > around
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > bit.  It then gets frustrating and annoying.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've tried to play around with the xinput set-props but I
> just
> > > can't
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > > the right combination.  I've also seen a few patches that
> were
> > > > > applied to
> > > > > > > > help others out, but considering I can't get Ubuntu to
> recognize
> > > the
> > > > > 1.7
> > > > > > > > version I downloaded, I'm not exactly sure I'd be able to
> patch
> > > and
> > > > > use
> > > > > > > > that version.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/
> > > > > building_libinput.html
> > > > > > > should get you there. try current master or at least 1.6,
> pointer
> > > > > > > acceleration changed a lot in 1.5 and is still subject to some
> > > > > > > (lower-priority) investigations.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > >    Peter
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any help is appreciated.  I know it's not much to go on as I
> > > don't
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > dumps but I'm more than happy to work with everybody in
> order to
> > > get
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > solved and to help others.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you in advanced...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Peter,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for the information.  I was able to get Ubuntu to use the
> > > compiled
> > > > > > version, but now I've run into another problem.  When using the
> > > touchpad,
> > > > > > it seems like I have a hard time trying to pinpoint a location
> on the
> > > > > > screen.  Normally, I'll slide my finger across and when I get to
> the
> > > > > area,
> > > > > > I will stop or slow down and use small increments to get the
> cursor
> > > to
> > > > > > where I need it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've played around with the acceleration setting, but I still
> can't
> > > > > really
> > > > > > get it to the right spot.  I kind of have to move my finger
> around a
> > > few
> > > > > > times in order to get it to the precise location.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With the Synaptics driver, it seemed to work pretty good....but
> then
> > > with
> > > > > > libinput, I'm still having an issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > there's a whole bunch of bugs open regarding touchpad acceleration,
> > > but I
> > > > > get pulled off working on it (ptraccel is a depressing thing to
> work on
> > > > > anyway). there's a v4 branch floating around too that improves
> things
> > > ever
> > > > > so slightly but the biggest issue with pointeraccel is muscle
> memory.
> > > give
> > > > > it a few days and you'll likely adjust. that's all I have atm
> until I
> > > find
> > > > > time to work on that bug again, sorry.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >    Peter
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Peter,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the response and I totally understand about finding the
> time.
> > > > It's just frustrating/annoying that a number of distributions have
> > > > abandoned synaptics and now use libinput....when there are still some
> > > bugs
> > > > that are still needing to get worked out, but that's really not your
> > > > fault.
> > >
> > > fwiw, the thought that synaptics had good pointer acceleration is
> mostly an
> > > illusion. it was dependent on so many system-specific factors (e.g.
> screen
> > > size) that whether it worked for you or not was mostly a lottery.
> > > the number of people who never use the touchpad because it's been so
> bad
> > > for
> > > years is rather high, it's just now that it changed that a lot of
> > > bugreports
> > > are filed by those who liked the previous version. I hear quite
> frequently
> > > that for many people this is the first time the touchpad has been
> usable at
> > > all.
> > >
> > > > And furthermore, a current distro that ships a very old version of
> > > > libinput instead of the latest one that contains a number of fixes.
> > > Again,
> > > > not your fault.  :)
> > >
> > > yeah, that is definitely not something I can fix :)
> > >
> > > > I'm no programmer, but if there's anything that I can do to
> contribute
> > > and
> > > > help move the process along, please contact me.  I'll try to help
> out as
> > > > much as I can as it seems like libinput is the future of touchpads in
> > > Linux
> > > > distros.
> > >
> > > yeah, it is, synaptics has been effectively unmaintained for years, it
> just
> > > happened to mostly work, and/or had enough knobs that with sufficient
> > > patience people could coerce it into working.
> > >
> > > there's a bunch of bugs open for libinput on bugs.freedesktop.org,
> have a
> > > look and see if you can find anything that tickles your fancy. I'm
> happy to
> > > help you get started :)
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >    Peter
> > >
>
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