<div dir="ltr"><div>Perhaps the Kconfig modifications could be postponed to stage 2</div><div>since for people running distros that suddenly decide to disable</div><div>/sys/class/backlight/ it may be impractical for them to recompile</div><div>their kernels and such. Also stage 2 should probably take ~2 decades</div><div>until it comes into being, for reference fbdev SPECIFIC drivers</div><div>were removed from fedora just recently and because of that there</div><div>were some issues with some user's systems. I understand it's much</div><div>easier to change from the /sys/class/backlight/ interface to the one</div><div>you have proposed than to change from fbdev to KMS though. </div></div> <div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 3:27 AM Hans de Goede <<a href="mailto:hdegoede@redhat.com">hdegoede@redhat.com</a>> wrote: </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Yusuf, On 8/24/22 04:18, Yusuf Khan wrote: > Sorry for the necro-bump, I hadnt seen this go by No problem. > My main concern with this proposal is the phasing out of /sys/class/backlight/. > Currently on the user(user, not userland) level its easier for me to just modify > the file and be done with it. xbacklight doesnt tell me when its failed, > brightnessctl doesnt make assumptions about what device is what, and > other brightness setting applications ive seen are much worse than them. > Someone needs to create a userland application thats less inconvenient > than `echo`ing into /sys/class/backlight with a name that human beings can > actually remember before I stop using the sysfs, perhaps "setbrightness" > could be the binary's name? Also I dont think its wise to disable or make it > read only though Kconfig as older apps may depend on it, maybe add a > kernel param that disables the old interface so bigger distros can pressure > app makers into changing the interface? As a big draw for DDC/CI is that > many displays support it as a way to change brightness(even if you arent > doing anything special that would break the old interface) perhaps it could > be an early adopter to that kernel parameter? Right, so deprecating the /sys/class/backlight API definitely is the last step and probably is years away. As you say hiding / making it read-only should probably be a kernel-parameter at first, with maybe a Kconfig option to set the default. So the depcration would go like this: 1. Add: A kernel-parameter to allow hiding or read-only-ing the sysfs interface + Kconfig to select the default + dev_warn_once() when the old API is used 2. (much later) Drop the Kconfig option and default to hiding/read-only 3. (even later) Maybe completely remove the sysfs interface? Note the hiding vs read-only thing is to be decided. ATM I'm rather more focused on getting the new API in place then on deprecating the old one :) Anyways I fully agree that we need to do the deprecation carefully and slowly. This is likely going to take multiple years and then some ... Regards, Hans > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:39 AM Hans de Goede <<a href="mailto:hdegoede@redhat.com" target="_blank">hdegoede@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:hdegoede@redhat.com" target="_blank">hdegoede@redhat.com</a>>> wrote: > > As discussed already several times in the past: > <a href="https://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2014/XDC2014GoedeBacklight/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2014/XDC2014GoedeBacklight/</a> <<a href="https://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2014/XDC2014GoedeBacklight/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2014/XDC2014GoedeBacklight/</a>> > <a href="https://lore.kernel.org/all/4b17ba08-39f3-57dd-5aad-d37d844b02c6@linux.intel.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lore.kernel.org/all/4b17ba08-39f3-57dd-5aad-d37d844b02c6@linux.intel.com/</a> <<a href="https://lore.kernel.org/all/4b17ba08-39f3-57dd-5aad-d37d844b02c6@linux.intel.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lore.kernel.org/all/4b17ba08-39f3-57dd-5aad-d37d844b02c6@linux.intel.com/</a>> > > The current userspace API for brightness control offered by > /sys/class/backlight devices has various issues, the biggest 2 being: > > 1. There is no way to map the backlight device to a specific > display-output / panel (1) > 2. Controlling the brightness requires root-rights requiring > desktop-environments to use suid-root helpers for this. > > As already discussed on various conference's hallway tracks > and as has been proposed on the dri-devel list once before (2), > it seems that there is consensus that the best way to to solve these > 2 issues is to add support for controlling a video-output's brightness > through properties on the drm_connector. > > This RFC outlines my plan to try and actually implement this, > which has 3 phases: > > > Phase 1: Stop registering multiple /sys/class/backlight devs for a single display > ================================================================================= > > On x86 there can be multiple firmware + direct-hw-access methods > for controlling the backlight and in some cases the kernel registers > multiple backlight-devices for a single internal laptop LCD panel: > > a) i915 and nouveau unconditionally register their "native" backlight dev > even on devices where /sys/class/backlight/acpi_video0 must be used > to control the backlight, relying on userspace to prefer the "firmware" > acpi_video0 device over "native" devices. > b) amdgpu and nouveau rely on the acpi_video driver initializing before > them, which currently causes /sys/class/backlight/acpi_video0 to usually > show up and then they register their own native backlight driver after > which the drivers/acpi/video_detect.c code unregisters the acpi_video0 > device. This means that userspace briefly sees 2 devices and the > disappearing of acpi_video0 after a brief time confuses the systemd > backlight level save/restore code, see e.g.: > <a href="https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=269920" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=269920</a> <<a href="https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=269920" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=269920</a>> > > I already have a pretty detailed plan to tackle this, which I will > post in a separate RFC email. I plan to start working on this right > away, as it will be good to have this fixed regardless. > > > Phase 2: Add drm_connector properties mirroring the matching backlight device > ============================================================================= > > The plan is to add a drm_connector helper function, which optionally takes > a pointer to the backlight device for the GPU's native backlight device, > which will then mirror the backlight settings from the backlight device > in a set of read/write brightness* properties on the connector. > > This function can then be called by GPU drivers for the drm_connector for > the internal panel and it will then take care of everything. When there > is no native GPU backlight device, or when it should not be used then > (on x86) the helper will use the acpi_video_get_backlight_type() to > determine which backlight-device should be used instead and it will find > + mirror that one. > > > Phase 3: Deprecate /sys/class/backlight uAPI > ============================================ > > Once most userspace has moved over to using the new drm_connector > brightness props, a Kconfig option can be added to stop exporting > the backlight-devices under /sys/class/backlight. The plan is to > just disable the sysfs interface and keep the existing backlight-device > internal kernel abstraction as is, since some abstraction for (non GPU > native) backlight devices will be necessary regardless. > > An alternative to disabling the sysfs class entirely, would be > to allow setting it to read-only through Kconfig. > > > What scale to use for the drm_connector bl_brightness property? > =============================================================== > > The tricky part of this plan is phase 2 and then esp. defining what the > new brightness properties will look like and how they will work. > > The biggest challenge here is to decide on a fixed scale for the main > brightness property, say 0-65535, using scaling where the actual hw scale > is different, or if this should simply be a 1:1 mirror of the current > backlight interface, with the actual hw scale / brightness_max value > exposed as a drm_connector property. > > 1:1 advantages / 0-65535 disadvantages > - Userspace will likely move over to the connector-props quite slowly and > we can expect various userspace bits, esp. also custom user scripts, to > keep using the old uAPI for a long time. Using the 2 APIs are intermixed > is fine when using a 1:1 brightness scale mapping. But if we end up doing > a scaling round-trip all the time then eventually the brightness is going > do drift. This can even happen if the user never changes the brightness > when userspace saves it over suspend/resume or reboots. > - Almost all laptops have brightness up/down hotkeys. E.g GNOME decides > on a step size for the hotkeys by doing min(brightness_max/20, 1). > Some of the vendor specific backlight fw APIs (e.g. dell-laptop) have > only 8 steps. When giving userspace the actual max_brightness value, then > this will all work just fine. When hardcode brightness_max to 65535 OTOH > then in this case GNOME will still give the user 20 steps where only 1 > in every 2-3 steps actually changes the brightness which IMHO is > an unacceptably bad user experience. > > 0-65535 advantages / 1:1 disadvantages > - Without a fixed scale for the brightness property the brightness_max > value may change after an userspace application's initial enumeration > of the drm_connector. This can happen when neither the native GPU nor > the acpi_video backlight devices are present/usable in this case > acpi_video_get_backlight_type() will _assume_ a vendor specific fw API > will be used for backlight control and the driver proving the "vendor" > backlight device will show up much later and may even never show-up, > so waiting for it is not an option. With a fixed 0-65535 scale userspace > can just always assume this and the drm_connector backlight props helper > code can even cache writes and send it to the actual backlight device > when it shows up. With a 1:1 mapping userspace needs to listen for > a uevent and then update the brightness range on such an event. > > I believe that the 1:1 mapping advantages out way the disadvantages > here. Also note that current userspace already blindly assumes that > all relevant drivers are loaded before the graphical-environment > starts and all the desktop environments as such already only do > a single scan of /sys/class/backlight when they start. So when > userspace forgets to add code to listen for the uevent when switching > to the new API nothing changes; and with the uevent userspace actually > gets a good mechanism to detect backlight drivers loading after > the graphical-environment has already started. > > So based on this here is my proposal for a set of new brightness > properties on the drm_connector object. Note these are all prefixed with > bl which stands for backlight, which is technically not correct for OLED. > But we need a prefix to avoid a name collision with the "brightness" > attribute which is part of the existing TV specific properties and IMHO > it is good to have a common prefix to make it clear that these all > belong together. > > > The drm_connector brightness properties > ======================================= > > bl_brightness: rw 0-int32_max property controlling the brightness setting > of the connected display. The actual maximum of this will be less then > int32_max and is given in bl_brightness_max. > > bl_brightness_max: ro 0-int32_max property giving the actual maximum > of the display's brightness setting. This will report 0 when brightness > control is not available (yet). > > bl_brightness_0_is_min_brightness: ro, boolean > When this is set to true then it is safe to set brightness to 0 > without worrying that this completely turns the backlight off causing > the screen to become unreadable. When this is false setting brightness > to 0 may turn the backlight off, but this is _not_ guaranteed. > This will e.g. be true when directly driving a PWM and the video-BIOS > has provided a minimum (non 0) duty-cycle below which the driver will > never go. > > bl_brightness_control_method: ro, enum, possible values: > none: The GPU driver expects brightness control to be provided by another > driver and that driver has not loaded yet. > unknown: The underlying control mechanism is unknown. > pwm: The brightness property directly controls the duty-cycle of a PWM > output. > firmware: The brightness is controlled through firmware calls. > DDC/CI: The brightness is controlled through the DDC/CI protocol. > gmux: The brightness is controlled by the GMUX. > Note this enum may be extended in the future, so other values may > be read, these should be treated as "unknown". > > When brightness control becomes available after being reported > as not available before (bl_brightness_control_method=="none") > a uevent with CONNECTOR=<connector-id> and > PROPERTY=<bl_brightness_control_method-id> will be generated > at this point all the properties must be re-read. > > When/once brightness control is available then all the read-only > properties are fixed and will never change. > > Besides the "none" value for no driver having loaded yet, > the different bl_brightness_control_method values are intended for > (userspace) heuristics for such things as the brightness setting > linearly controlling electrical power or setting perceived brightness. > > Regards, > > Hans > > > 1) The need to be able to map the backlight device to a specific display > has become clear once more with the recent proposal to add DDCDI support: > <a href="https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220403230850.2986-1-yusisamerican@gmail.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220403230850.2986-1-yusisamerican@gmail.com/</a> <<a href="https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220403230850.2986-1-yusisamerican@gmail.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220403230850.2986-1-yusisamerican@gmail.com/</a>> > > 2) <a href="https://lore.kernel.org/all/4b17ba08-39f3-57dd-5aad-d37d844b02c6@linux.intel.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lore.kernel.org/all/4b17ba08-39f3-57dd-5aad-d37d844b02c6@linux.intel.com/</a> <<a href="https://lore.kernel.org/all/4b17ba08-39f3-57dd-5aad-d37d844b02c6@linux.intel.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lore.kernel.org/all/4b17ba08-39f3-57dd-5aad-d37d844b02c6@linux.intel.com/</a>> > Note this proposal included a method for userspace to be able to tell the > kernel if the native/acpi_video/vendor backlight device should be used, > but this has been solved in the kernel for years now: > <a href="https://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-acpi/msg50526.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-acpi/msg50526.html</a> <<a href="https://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-acpi/msg50526.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-acpi/msg50526.html</a>> > An initial implementation of this proposal is available here: > <a href="https://cgit.freedesktop.org/~mperes/linux/log/?h=backlight" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://cgit.freedesktop.org/~mperes/linux/log/?h=backlight</a> <<a href="https://cgit.freedesktop.org/~mperes/linux/log/?h=backlight" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://cgit.freedesktop.org/~mperes/linux/log/?h=backlight</a>> > </blockquote></div>