[Inkscape-devel] Window Manager Modifiers

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) raster at rasterman.com
Mon Aug 6 04:37:32 PDT 2007

On Mon, 6 Aug 2007 11:07:33 +0200 jiho <jo.irisson at gmail.com> babbled:

> On 2007-August-05  , at 00:13 , Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 18:51:10 +0200 jiho <jo.irisson at gmail.com> babbled:
> >> First of all, it was not my intention to start a flame war or
> >> anything. It is just my personal opinion that what lacks the more
> >> cruelly to Linux desktop currently is consistency and keybindings is
> >> one particularly clear example. I hoped that mentioning it on this
> >> list, where the problem is regularly brought up, would get the ball
> >> rolling to the correct people (be they freedesktop or someone else).
> >> Anyway, I happily use Mac OS X (where keybindings are quite
> >> consistent and can be edited easily anyway) and won't "fight" for
> >> linux to get better... I just hope it will, because I like the
> >> development model more ;-)
> >
> > here's the problem. in windows or OSX - you have no CHOICE. you get  
> > your "wm"
> > with the bindings it comes with - and that's it. sure - some of  
> > these bindings
> > can be changed - and that is no different to x11 and window  
> > managers -the
> > difference being there is not just 1 wm. there are many - with many  
> > many many
> > different features, ideas and design goals. they will all probably  
> > have
> > different needs for bindings based on these features. asking every  
> > wm to NOT
> > use some modifier or to all use exactly the same isn't going to  
> > happen -
> Actually, this is what I hope will happen ;) I don't think everything  

there is already convergence - and frankly alt+mouse buttons is very common
amongst wm's - especially modern ones. it's expected. so it really is up to you
to work around that and not want to use alt + mouse by default.

> can work with everything else if there is not at least a little  
> planning done ahead. This kind of planning is done for each program  
> but currently independently because most are managed by different  
> teams. It would be good to have this done at a little higher level,  
> for the purpose of unification. I think this can be compared with  
> document formats: of course every word processing software could work  
> with its own, custom made format but wouldn't it be better if all  
> used odt? I think it would.

and you end up with massive standards, lowest-common denominators. wm's with
more features can't providing bindings by default because they are not allowed
by the default "standard", and you get a lot of fighting. in the end your
biggest example is not going to go (i think) as many wm's use it by default. i
know my users have expected it to be there for 8+ years. i have used it for
that length of time. in the end "we were here first" so to speak :)

> Of course the point is not to force every WM to do change its  
> keybindings but I think it wouldn't hurt to have a standard defined,  
> for interoperability and best usability, and then projects who care  
> can adopt it. FreeDektop seems to be the right organization to define  
> such a standard and, in my opinion, this standard should be "use  
> META, and combinations of META with other modifiers, for all WM/ 
> desktop level keyboard shortcuts" for the reasons I explained in my  
> previous email.

i disagree. alt and alt+ctrl for wm use. you get to use meta. wm's took alt
+mouse first :) i know that on a rare occasion a user complains they can't
access feature X in gimp - my answer is "change your config then" - as we have
that option here. do you have such an option? no. i think it is inkscape's job
to provide that - wm's have made themselves flexible for apps - apps need to
make themselves flexible for wm's. this is a 2 way street. i can tell you now
that there is no way i am changing to use meta - mainly because it isn't
available by default in most xservers. my users would kill me if we changed. and
i would be extremely annoyed. it's your job to use meta/super/hyper etc. and
provide ways to set up such usage. we already have those options in wm land.


> JiHO
> ---
> http://jo.irisson.free.fr/

------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)    raster at rasterman.com
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)

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