[Openfontlibrary] clarification...

Sat Jan 27 09:13:33 PST 2007

hi jon,

> > there are no type-designers on this list, and as far as i know not even graphic designers. (please 
> > correct me if i'm wrong!)
> 
> Yes, you are wrong about this. I've worked professionally for 14+ years
> on both fronts (lesser on fonts). Also, Raph has done tons of font work.
> There are also several designers on this list.

ok, i apologise for not mentioning raph. (i guess in an unconscious level i put him into another 
category, since he is also a programmer and free-software developer.)

nice to know that you have also worked with type-design. have you designed text fonts?

our friend dave will join this list soon, i'm looking forward for that... ;-)

my point is: there should be many many more type-designers on this list if the goal is to have a 
collection of high-quality fonts and have the point-of-view of type-designers represented.

i feel the point-of-view of type-designers is not represented on this list, and i feel unconfortable 
about raising this issue alone.

> > there aren't any discussions about design or typographic issues.
> 
> Well, please bring them on? If you want to talk about them, then you
> must do this. However, this community is about open font library, the
> project, so maybe not the best for font-specific issues, but is great
> for developing a large font library. However, it is he/she who speaks
> and contributes who sets the agenda...

ok, i'll give it a try:

first of all, i think the ofl is too permissive for my business model. i am an independent designer, as 
most type-designers are; i don't have salaries paid by any company, and i am definitely not rich. i am 
trying to set up a type business, in which the income is typically generated by commercial font 
licenses and by doing custom font and lettering jobs.

i have spent the last 3 years in europe studying, but i am from brazil, i'm in rio right now. there is 
not type market here; designers, even big design studios and advertising agencies, simply don't buy 
fonts. there is also no culture of licensing software, some companies do so only because they fear 
being sued (this is happening more and more). this is a very complex issue, because the prices 
charged my ms, adobe etc are very high, while the value of design here is lower than in central 
countries. most design businesses would break if they would pay for (all) licenses.

i think the attitude of using illegal copies is bad for us, because by doing so people are contributing 
to make ms/adobe the standard tools/environment, and not contributing to a movement that 
presents an alternative: free-software. this is where my interest for free software comes from: it 
enables people to get work done without the unsustainable costs practised by ms/adobe/etc AND 
respects copyright.

copyright is very important for me as a (type-)designer. without respect for copyrights, there is no 
type-business; if people use my work and i don't get anything for it, my business breaks. when i try 
to talk about copyright and licensing here, people come with the argument "but i can't afford that, 
poor me blablabla"... free-software gives me a contra-argument, because i can say "ok, if you can't 
afford that, use free-software, because then you are supporting the people who want to give you an 
option and are respecting copyright, this thing which makes my business possible." i want to say the 
same things in relation to fonts: "please don't use illegal copies, because by doing that you are 
helping to create a culture of copyright-disrespect in which my business is not possible; there are 
good free fonts around, if you can't pay for fonts, use them, here are they."

going back to the business of type and the ofl. i would like to offer some of my fonts under a free 
license, so those people who cannot afford paying for fonts will have a legal option. by doing that i 
hope to: 1. make people aware that there is this thing called "font-license", 2. show that the designer 
is not a greedy motherfucker*, he is actually a very friendly and generous person giving some of his 
hard work for free, 3. have people using my fonts and liking it, maybe so much that they will 
consider paying for their full versions.

* this is a very important point: sometimes i feel offended by the way people who charge for their 
work are referred to, as 'unethical', 'unsustainable' etc. i care very much about ethics (otherwise i 
wouldn't be here), but my business needs to be financially sustainable, i have bills to pay. i spend a 
lot of time trying to bring those two dimensions, ethic and economy, together. so please don't treat 
me as i would be egoist and greedy, this makes me very sad.

as i was saying, the ofl is too permissive for me. the development costs for the sil or the gfs fonts are 
paid, this is why they can allow modification, redistribution, selling etc. the designers who worked on 
these fonts have been compensated through their salaries. but this is not the case of independent 
designers: they invest months or years of work and need to get this work paid back later, through 
commercial licensing or custom jobs.

the licensing terms for my fonts would be similar to those from the exljbris guy: 1. you can use the 
fonts for commercial work, but please cite my name and my foundry's url; 2. you are not allowed to 
modify the fonts, if you have a wish get in touch with me and i can do it for you, but i will charge you 
for that; 3. you are not allowed to sell my fonts! why should i allow that?! this is my work and i need 
this income to continue running my business, otherwise it will break.

i am not saying that my fonts could not be bundled with free-software distributions, but i would like 
to have the final word on that. and i think this is very fair.

> > the website is poorly designed.
> 
> Would you like to help the project? If you can complain, then please,
> step up to the plate and provide a better solution. Its the open way...

i didn't want to offend. i am not complaining, i am criticizing. i believe critique is the way to achieve 
quality. i have a very strong self-critique, and yes, i've had trouble working on collaborative projects 
because of that. some people cannot deal with this, but this is how i am. maybe this is why i am 
doing type-design, because it's a one-man thing... :-)

> > most fonts are unusable for any serious graphic design work.
> 
> We haven't even launched the project. I put it up in a day to satisfy
> people who wanted it, and worked with a few people to get it going. Yet
> again, if you would like to make it better, please do so...the door and
> tracker are open for your contributions.

hmm, i think it's not clear for the users that the project has not been lauched - after all there is a url 
with a website and fonts. and i think users, without knowing that, get a very bad impression of 
openfontlibrary.org.

when i say users i think mainly of graphic designers, the users of fonts. they give a lot of value to 
design, after all it is their business. graphic designers are used with looking at fonts in well-designed 
websites - take a look at fontfont, linotype, monotype, ourtype, veer, emigre etc etc.

another group of users of the open font library website is type-designers. most type-designers i 
know don't have the knowledge/energy/wish to set up their own foundry, they would rather put their 
fonts in some foundry's catalogue. sometimes they choose a foundry that gives them lower rates, but 
which has a stronger brand. they want to be able to say "i have designed this font, it's (for ex:) in the 
FontFont catalogue". even if they don't get much money with it, to be in the FontFont catalogue is a 
sign of quality, your fonts are seen together with the work of great type-designers like martin 
majoor, fred smeijers, erik spiekermann etc etc. if they take you, this means you are good.

the lack of design in the openfontlibrary website and the lack of design thinking in the discussions 
around the openfontlibrary makes me think that i will never want to have my fonts associated with 
this project. it's simply not good for my image, for the communication of my work. i think every 
type-designer would feel the same.

but then we need to define what is a type-designer. not everybody who makes a font is a type-
designer!!! making high-quality fonts demands a lot of studying and a lot of work. ***A LOT***, i 
cannot emphasize that enough. type-design is a very complex field which goes in all directions, 
culture, language, history, technology, art, communication, business, law. i have been studying type-
design for more than 5 years now, and i haven't released any font yet. ok, this is maybe too much, i 
suffer from cronic perfectionism :-) (but which good type-designers don't?), and i have done other 
things during this time... but i still think this is a valid reference.

i think firefox is a good reference for us to talk about the value of good design. i think firefox ows 
much of it's success and penetration in the public of general users to it's well-designed brand. i bet 
the firefox logo was designed by highly skilled professionals, who were well-paid for that, the same 
with ff's communciation strategy. (?) 

> > i would like to elaborate, but i have other things to do.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to discuss Gustavo, but please, when
> criticizing in Open Source (and this project), please be able to 
> back up your arguments with contributions to fix the problems. If 
> this doesn't happen, there isn't much use in spending time on the 
> problems, right?
> 
> Now, if you would like help fix these issues you see, please help us
> out. You can upload your fonts now. You can provide code to fix ccHost
> (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/cchost). You can apply for a developer
> account through us and join our mailing list (as you have done) to help
> us out more.

i think the biggest problem to fix in the openfontlibrary at the moment is the lack of design thinking, 
and the lack of expression of designers' and type-designers' points-of-view. i sincerely hope this 
long email helps a bit.

but really, i am involved in other projects right now, working very hard to get a living out of type-
design (preparing a workshop and an article, trying to get custom jobs, working on my fonts etc), so 
i don't know how much time i will be able to spend here. it also depends on believing that it's worth 
do dedicate time to this effort. i still do... :-)

my very best regards,
- gustavo.

---------- Original Message -----------
From: Jon Phillips <jon at rejon.org>
To: Gustavo Ferreira <grilo at centroin.com.br>
Cc: openfontlibrary at lists.freedesktop.org
Sent: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:17:57 -0800
Subject: Re: [Openfontlibrary] clarification...

> On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 22:40 -0100, Gustavo Ferreira wrote:
> > hi, it's me again.
> > 
> > i feel i need to make my point-of-view clearer:
> > 
> > i'm not against the open font library, the open font license, the idea of distributing fonts as 
free-
> > software etc. on the opposite, otherwise i wouldn't be here.
> > 
> > but i don't agree with many opinions and strategies expressed here on this list.
> > 
> > there are no type-designers on this list, and as far as i know not even graphic designers. (please 
> > correct me if i'm wrong!)
> 
> Yes, you are wrong about this. I've worked professionally for 14+ years
> on both fronts (lesser on fonts). Also, Raph has done tons of font work.
> There are also several designers on this list.
> 
> > there aren't any discussions about design or typographic issues.
> 
> Well, please bring them on? If you want to talk about them, then you
> must do this. However, this community is about open font library, the
> project, so maybe not the best for font-specific issues, but is great
> for developing a large font library. However, it is he/she who speaks
> and contributes who sets the agenda...
> 
> > the website is poorly designed.
> 
> Would you like to help the project? If you can complain, then please,
> step up to the plate and provide a better solution. Its the open way...
> 
> > most fonts are unusable for any serious graphic design work.
> 
> We haven't even launched the project. I put it up in a day to satisfy
> people who wanted it, and worked with a few people to get it going. Yet
> again, if you would like to make it better, please do so...the door and
> tracker are open for your contributions.
> 
> > nothing has been said about quality control.
> 
> You need some more contributions to be able to pick out quality IMO.
> This site is very much stuctured for quality control.
> 
> > ...this all makes me very sad, because i really believe in the idea of distributing fonts as free 
> > software.
> 
> > but i also believe you cannot really reach quality without criticism.
> > 
> > i would like to elaborate, but i have other things to do.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to discuss Gustavo, but please, when
> criticizing in Open Source (and this project), please be able to 
> back up your arguments with contributions to fix the problems. If 
> this doesn't happen, there isn't much use in spending time on the 
> problems, right?
> 
> Now, if you would like help fix these issues you see, please help us
> out. You can upload your fonts now. You can provide code to fix ccHost
> (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/cchost). You can apply for a developer
> account through us and join our mailing list (as you have done) to help
> us out more.
> 
> Jon
> 
> > 
> > looking forward for your responses,
> > - gustavo.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openfontlibrary mailing list
> > Openfontlibrary at lists.freedesktop.org
> > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
> -- 
> Jon Phillips
> 
> San Francisco, CA
> USA PH 510.499.0894
> jon at rejon.org
> http://www.rejon.org
> 
> MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto
> Jabber Chat: rejon at gristle.org
> IRC: rejon at irc.freenode.net
------- End of Original Message -------