[Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution for CJK fonts

Akira TAGOH akira at tagoh.org
Sun Jun 10 19:22:47 PDT 2012

Thanks for sharing the information. that would be useful if we
supports the panose and sFamilyClass in the future. I'm listening.

Well, I have no concrete plans to do it so far though. I could have
some testing in libeasyfc first and port it to fontconfig later
perhaps if it's really useful.

On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 9:26 PM,  <mpsuzuki at hiroshima-u.ac.jp> wrote:
> Hi,
> Sorry for lated participation to the discussion. For first,
> please let me explain what Japanese experts had ever done.
> I mention about the relationship between Chinese typeface
> category name and Japanese one, it does NOT mean that I'm
> saying as "follow to Japanese classification". On contrally,
> I want to hear the counter proposal from Chinese experts,
> to prevent Japanese-specific hooks into fontconfig.
> --
> An organization, TrueType Consortium Japan had ever defined
> the values of IBM FamilyClass & Panose for Japanese typefaces,
> for guiding font fallbacks in 1996. Their categorizaton was
> following:
> Mincho          Class=1,        SubClass=5,     PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2
> Kyokasho(*)     Class=1,        SubClass=8,     PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2
> Soucho          Class=1,        SubClass=3,     PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2
> Kaku-Gothic     Class=8,        SubClass=1,     PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=11
> Maru-Gothic     Class=8,        SubClass=9,     PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=15
> Kaisho          Class=10,       SubClass=7,     PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0
> Gyousho         Class=10,       SubClass=6,     PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0
> Sousho          Class=10,       SubClass=6,     PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0
> Reisho          Class=10,       SubClass=8,     PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0
> Pen-ji          Class=10,       SubClass=5,     PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0
> Edo-moji        Class=9,        SubClass=2,     PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0
> Tensho          Class=9,        SubClass=0,     PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=15
> Kointai(**)     Class=9,        SubClass=1,     PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0
> Pop(Mincho)     Class=9,        SubClass=3,     PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=2
> Pop(K-Gothic)   Class=9,        SubClass=3,     PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=11
> Pop(M-Gothic)   Class=9,        SubClass=3,     PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=15
> I will explain the typeface names if needed, so please post
> a request. The rough mapping between the names for Chinese
> typeface classification would be:
> SungTi/SongTi/MingTi --> Mincho
> HeiTi --> Gothic (***)
> FangSong --> Soucho
> Kaishu --> Kaisho
> XingShu --> Gyosho
> CaoShu --> Sousho
> LiShu --> Reisho
> ZhuanShu --> Tensho
> This is based on current Japanese cultural recognizations of
> typefaces, so the classification is incorrect from the viewpoint
> of the historical development of the writing systems, and too
> cursory (e.g. Edo-moji is a name calling various calligraphic
> styles for different purposes, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edomoji ).
> (*) Kyokasho is a typeface based on Mincho, designed for the
> textbooks in the elementary schools. A core charset for the
> educations in elementary schools are requested to simulate
> the Kaishu typeface (by government), to prevent the confusion
> by seeing different glyphic shapes between Mincho and Kaishu.
> (**) Kointai is a name saying "a typeface looking like old
> sealing stamp". It sounds aslike if it were post-Qin seal
> scripts, but the glyphs of the products in Japanese markets
> with this name look like as "damaged (or poorly stone-rubbed)
> LiShu".
> (***) Often Japanese Sans-Serif typefaces are distinguished by
> the edge shape of the end of strokes; if the angles are left
> at the end (looking like the rectangle), they are called as
> Kaku-Gothic - if the edge is blunted/rounded, they are called
> as Maru-Gothic. However, there is a remarkable tendency that
> Maru-Gothic typefaces are designed to be more geometrically
> and puffed, so a confusion between Kaku- and Maru-Gothic is
> becoming popular gradually.
> --
> As I've written before, I think the variety of the typeface
> families bundled to the liberated (e.g. GNU/Linux), or the
> minimum configuration of the personal computers (e.g. Microsoft
> Windows without Microsoft Office, nor additional language pack)
> would not be so large. In Japan, a pair of Serif & Sans Serif
> (called Mincho & Gothic) is recognized as the minimum configuration.
> Other fonts, Rounded-Gothic, Kaisho, Kyokasho, Gyosho, Sousho
> etc are quite exceptional. Even on Microsoft Windows, the bare
> operating systems do not have. Although Microsoft Office bundles
> these typefaces, it is rare that the office documents using them.
> Thus, Japanese popular scenario of font substitution during
> the cross platform document interchange would be the fallback
> from non-basic families (Rounded-Gothic, Kaisho, etc) to
> basic families (Gothic, Mincho). I think most Japanese people
> do not complain that the substitution from Kaisho to Mincho.
> # I think Japanese publishing using Kaisho fonts are quite few.
> Thus, the fine granurarity classifications of Kaisho, Gyosho,
> Sousho are not discussed, because they are not recognized as
> essential. Although Kaishu by Wang Xishin and by Yang Zhenqing
> show remarkable contrast, the computer users having 2 different
> Kaishu fonts for them were expected to be quite quite few.
> In addition, because of the difference of the user community,
> the charset supported by the fonts are often different.
> The basic typefaces, Mincho & Gothic are always exposed to
> the pressure to wider charset. But such pressure to non-basic
> typefaces, like Kisho, is not so strong.
> --
> For automatic, zero-configured, or hardwired font substitution
> of Chinese fonts, following discussions are expected.
> 1) the definition of the basic categories of the fonts.
>   if what kind of features are required for the category,
>   it should be noted.
>   for example, if a system has only 2 typefaces, Mincho and
>   Gothic, Gothic is always designed to be "heavier" than
>   Mincho, because Gothic is basically used for the titles etc.
> 2) the investigation of the instances of the basic categories
>   that are commonly availbable on the users environment.
>   about the Microsoft products,
>   http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/family.aspx
>   would be good resource to check if the fonts are avaible
>   in the minimum configuration, or the users must have some
>   extra products.
> 3) the discussion of the mapping from the basic categories to
>   the instances. For example, if BeiWeiKaiShu fonts are missing,
>   it should be substituted by other (non-Beiwei) Kaishu? Or,
>   fallback to FangSong is better?
> If there is any referential materials already, please let me
> know.
> Regards,
> mpsuzuki
> On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 19:08:02 +0800
> BlissSam <m13253 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Sorry for the delay of this mail. For I am busy these couple of days.
>>So let us provide a tool to generate fallback rules instead of making
>>user write XML conf on their own from scratch. Also it can generate
>>some other things useful (e.g. preference, anti-alias and so on).
>>Simply allow a method of `bind' some font families together and tell
>>fontconfig that these fonts are `compatible', so fontconfig will choose
>>other fonts if one is missing.
>>And the font substitution can be more smart, user can specify whether
>>only to fallback when a font is missing, or to replace whenever that
>>font is installed; also, some users may want to substitute only on
>>screen or when printing.
>>> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:25:39 +0200
>>> Subject: Re: [Fontconfig] Request for implementing font substitution
>>for CJK fonts > From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net
>>> To: m13253 at hotmail.com
>>> CC: akira at tagoh.org; fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org
>>> Hi,
>>> What we do in Fedora is shipping fallback rules with the font
>>themselves in > the same package so if font foo is installed the
>>package also declares to > fontconfig it's an acceptable substitute for
>>bar, but if the user didn't > install foo the system does not waste
>>time processing rules for fonts which > are not available.
>>> And BTW it's very dangerous to declare a substitution rule for a
>>popular font, > because your substitution font will then be used in
>>lots of contexts and if > it's not as good (design or coverage-wise) as
>>the original font users won't be > happy at all.
>>> --
>>> Nicolas Mailhot
>>Fontconfig mailing list
>>Fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org
> _______________________________________________
> Fontconfig mailing list
> Fontconfig at lists.freedesktop.org
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig


More information about the Fontconfig mailing list