[gst-devel] Daily IRC logs

[wim.taymans at chello.be]

[06:30] <omega_> this is so cool ;-)
[06:34] <omega_> it's so cool users will want to use -launch
[06:34] <ajmitch> ;)
[06:36] <ajmitch> bye ;)
[06:36] Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy
[06:48] chillywilly (baumannd at d127.as9.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: bbiab
[07:04] <omega_> oh man, I could even integrate caps compatibility into this
[07:55] <taaz> nap time...
[07:55] Nick change: taaz -> taazzzz
[07:55] <omega_> this is gonna be so cool!
[07:55] <taazzzz> how long till its done? ;)
[07:55] <omega_> I hope to have an initial one done tonight
[07:55] <omega_> the shell version is working for a subset of it
[07:56] <omega_> I've generated a new xml registry (maybe to merge with the main one) for this
[07:56] <omega_> the completion program won't initialize gstreamer at all, just read the xml
[07:57] <taazzzz> does it do filename completion too? 
[07:57] <omega_> it will, yes
[07:57] <omega_> where appropriat e<g>
[07:57] <omega_> only if the argument  is of type GST_TYPE_FILENAME ;-)
[07:57] <taazzzz> context sensitive token completion... how nice ;)
[07:57] <omega_> very very context sensitive
[07:58] <omega_> just wait ;-)
[07:58] <taazzzz> is it smart enough to know where you can put thread delimiters?
[07:58] <omega_> it could be, yes
[07:58] <omega_> it could be smart enough to only show you compatible elements
[07:58] <taazzzz> yeah, do that!
[07:59] <omega_> gstreamer-launch disksrc ! mad ! <tab> <tab>
[07:59] <omega_> esdsink  osssink
[07:59] <omega_> ;-)
[07:59] <omega_> think of every feature you want, and email it to me
[08:00] <taazzzz> i only have one feature request of every program i use: does it sing and dance?
[08:00] <omega_> um, someone else will have to teach it how, but why not?
[08:01] hadess (hadess at pc121-gui14.cable.ntl.com) left irc: mooooh!
[08:02] <taazzzz> well... gstreamer kinda does it... i played that aliensong movie ;)
[08:02] <omega_> hehehe
[08:02] <omega_> quick question:
[08:02] Nick change: taazzzz -> taaz
[08:02] <omega_> what's the acronym for the name field in /etc/passwd
[08:02] <omega_> G... ?
[08:03] <taaz> huh?
[08:03] <omega_> there's a name for that field, esp when it holds name;room;phone, etc.
[08:04] <omega_> GCOS
[08:04] <taaz> GCOS
[08:04] <omega_> hehehe
[08:05] <taaz> i did man chfn... no idea what that stands for though
[08:05] <omega_> no idea either
[08:05] <omega_> or GECOS
[08:05] <omega_> no, that's something else
[08:06] <omega_> oh wait, it is that
[08:06] <omega_> see last para of http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?GCOS
[08:06] <omega_> wow, that's strange
[08:10] <taaz> hmm.  i got spam that starts "Dear Windows User,".  talk about missing your target...
[08:10] <omega_> wow
[08:10] <omega_> you should sue them for a) spam, b) slander
[08:11] <taaz> or c) hit the 'd' key
[08:11] <omega_> wimp
[08:14] <taaz> ok, really nap time now
[08:15] <omega_> ok, l8r
[08:15] Nick change: taaz -> taazzzz
[08:18] Topic changed on #gstreamer by ChanServ!s at ChanServ: GStreamer: the ultimate multimedia framework
[08:18] <omega_> ah, thank you ChanServ
[08:18] <omega_> welcome back, NickServ
[09:07] seth (seth at null.Stanford.EDU) joined #gstreamer.
[09:07] <omega_> yo
[09:07] <seth> yo
[09:08] Action: omega_ isn't volunteering his picture or GECOS info
[09:09] <seth> omega_: darn
[09:09] <seth> omega_: I so wanted to track you down
[09:10] <omega_> you won't believe what I'm doing right now
[09:12] <seth> You are eating a noodle while you stand on your head and yell "HOOOOOVER!" ?
[09:12] <omega_> um, ok, with that imagination, you might, but wrong
[09:12] <omega_> I'm writing a bash completion program for gstreamer-launch
[09:13] <seth> ???
[09:13] <omega_> you know, you hit tab in bash and it completes the filename?
[09:13] <seth> yes...
[09:13] <seth> oh no
[09:13] <seth> You are a maniac
[09:13] <omega_> imagine that happening for element, pad, argument, and property names for -launch ;-)
[09:13] <seth> I think the noodle concept was conservative
[09:13] <omega_> quite ;-)
[09:13] <seth> :-)
[09:14] <omega_> I have a shell prototype that works reasonably well for a limitted set of features
[09:14] <omega_> working on a pair of programs, one writes an xml file with the necessary info
[09:14] <omega_> the other reads that and does the right thing
[09:14] <omega_> the actual complete program doesn't use gstreamer at all, so it's fast (.1sec using DOM parsing)
[09:15] <seth> sweet
[09:15] Action: seth finally building GNOME2 tonight
[09:15] <seth> whee
[09:15] <omega_> it's very aware of the syntax
[09:15] <seth> I hate building
[09:15] Action: omega_ too
[09:15] Action: omega_ ran into Greg LeBlanc a couple days ago at the local PLUG meeting
[09:15] <omega_> he's Mr. Build now, I hear
[09:15] <seth> PLUG ?
[09:15] <seth> heh
[09:15] <omega_> Portland Linux Users Group
[09:16] <seth> ah...you guys are Portland...
[09:16] <seth> Cool
[09:16] <omega_> we recognized each other from somewhere....
[09:16] <seth> GUADEC?
[09:16] <omega_> and finally he mentioned GUADEC
[09:16] <omega_> <click>
[09:16] <seth> heh
[09:16] <omega_> believe it or not, it was his first time to a PLUG meet
[09:16] <omega_> my first time in 2yrs, though
[09:16] Action: seth not a big LUG-er
[09:16] <omega_> I'm scheduled to give a talk on GStreamer next month
[09:17] <omega_> I have to write one for users, not developers
[09:17] <seth> The usual LUG is filled with people obsessed with glorifying "geek culture", e.g. "Rick Moen" sorts
[09:17] <omega_> hmm, whether it's intentional or not <g>
[09:17] <seth> And clueless users, who I like helping, but not what I do to relax
[09:17] <omega_> yeah, that's the problem with this group
[09:17] <seth> I've been trying to form a development community here
[09:17] <seth> Its not fairing so well
[09:18] <omega_> the meeting was boring, the two speakers covered filesystem 'optimization' and basic 'setting up a domain name' stuff
[09:18] <seth> I actually started a LUG on campus, but it ended up being really usery
[09:18] <omega_> I'm gonna try that locally, again
[09:18] <seth> Its hard
[09:18] <omega_> but Greg says he doesn't code...
[09:18] <seth> I have no clue how to make it work
[09:18] <omega_> the trick is finding people
[09:18] <seth> he doesn't, but he knows the general principals
[09:18] <seth> I think the trick is making it low key
[09:18] <seth> just go out to dinner once a month and chat or something
[09:18] <omega_> there's an 'advanced topics' group that is no longer sponsored by Mandrake, but that's very sys-admin-ish
[09:19] <seth> "ideas will flow (TM)"
[09:19] <omega_> yup
[09:19] <omega_> I haven't gotten a reply from my mail sent to him >24hrs ago yet though
[09:19] <seth> He hasn't been active on IRC today
[09:20] <omega_> hmm, maybe on vacatio
[09:20] <omega_> er, vacation
[09:20] <seth> "gleblanc", if you didn't already know
[09:20] <omega_> I figured ;-)
[09:21] <omega_> this completion stuff is going to be so cool ;-)
[09:24] steveb (steveb at node1ee06.a2000.nl) joined #gstreamer.
[09:24] <omega_> yo
[09:24] <steveb> yo
[09:25] <omega_> oooooh, getting closer
[09:27] <steveb> the arts plugin don't compile for me
[09:27] <omega_> not surprising
[09:28] <steveb> ok
[09:28] <omega_> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010506
[09:28] <omega_> hehehehe
[09:30] <steveb> heh
[09:35] Action: omega_ is cheating to get bash to cooperate
[09:38] <omega_> ooooh
[09:44] Nick change: steveb -> steveb-pancakes
[10:16] Nick change: omega_ -> omega_sleep
[10:29] Nick change: steveb-pancakes -> steveb
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[13:20] Ow3n (owen at ti34a80-0852.bb.online.no) joined #gstreamer.
[13:21] <Ow3n> yo
[13:21] <maYam_sleep> *yawn*
[13:21] Nick change: maYam_sleep -> maYam
[13:21] <maYam> hi Ow3n
[13:21] <Ow3n> hi
[13:22] <Ow3n> Just woke up?
[13:22] <maYam> yep..  wtay's still in bed ;)
[13:22] <maYam> heavy saturdays
[13:22] <Ow3n> Have a good night last night?
[13:23] <maYam> nah, wtay won with snooker
[13:24] <Ow3n> Ah, you live in the same place.
[13:24] <maYam> i hope you had a more pleasant sat night :)
[13:24] <maYam> indd 
[13:24] <Ow3n> Actually we spent the whole of yesterday cleaning our appartment!
[13:24] <Ow3n> But the we had dinner and started making cocktails...
[13:25] <Ow3n> Then it was suddenly 3 and we decided to go for a walk...
[13:25] <maYam> well deserved cocktails..
[13:25] <Ow3n> Didn't get to sleep til 7 in the end.
[13:25] <maYam> lol and you're up already??
[13:25] <maYam> waw!
[13:25] <Ow3n> My girlfriend has college today.
[13:26] <maYam> hoho.. on sunday even
[13:26] <maYam> (or did i sleep 2 days?)
[13:26] <Ow3n> Yeah. She's doing a course beside work.
[13:26] Action: maYam confused
[13:26] <Ow3n> :)
[13:26] <maYam> brave woman!
[13:26] <maYam> cleaning, studying, working
[13:27] <maYam> she must be perfect
[13:27] Action: maYam knows what other people have that she doesn't
[13:27] <Ow3n> If she was perfect then I wouldn't have had to spend yesterday cleaning too :)
[13:27] <Ow3n> ?
[13:27] <Ow3n> Spare time?
[13:28] <maYam> no, i mean, cleaning abilities ;)
[13:28] <Ow3n> Ah!
[13:28] <Ow3n> I'm pretty hopeless too.
[13:29] <Ow3n> I just hold a cloth and take directions from her.
[13:29] <maYam> hehe
[13:29] <Ow3n> What's the weather like where you are? It's fantastic here.
[13:29] <maYam> yeah.. some clouds, but lots of sunshine
[13:30] <Ow3n> I used to live in London and didn't notice the seasons much but now I'm living in Norway it's bloody nice to see the sun again!
[13:31] <maYam> weird huh..  less clouds in scandinavia probably..
[13:31] <maYam> belgium is more like london
[13:31] <maYam> one season, autumn
[13:31] <Ow3n> Wait a minute, you have the same IP as wtay. Are you michelle?
[13:31] <maYam> what!
[13:31] <maYam> didn't you know??
[13:31] <maYam> rofl
[13:31] <Ow3n> No!!!
[13:32] <maYam> muhahah
[13:32] <Ow3n> He-he
[13:32] <Ow3n> I just thought you happened to live in the same place or something!
[13:32] <maYam> a small community.. interesting.. :)
[13:32] <Ow3n> Ahhhhh. Well, hi!!!
[13:33] <maYam> yeah hi again!
[13:33] <maYam> (wtay finally woke up)
[13:34] <Ow3n> Hurray!
[13:34] <maYam> eating crisps as breakfast
[13:34] <Ow3n> The perfect Sunday breakfast. Left over crisps and the dregs of left over beer.
[13:35] <maYam> ah don't tell me about beer..
[13:35] <Ow3n> :) My form isn't too much better.
[13:35] <maYam> when i came back from denmark, i thought i developed a taste for beer again...
[13:35] <maYam> but belgian beer is quite different..
[13:35] <maYam> yuk
[13:36] <Ow3n> You don't like belgian beer?
[13:36] <maYam> back on martini again
[13:36] <maYam> no, too bitter...
[13:36] <Ow3n> In England people go out of their way just to get Belgian beer!
[13:36] <maYam> yes, cause it's stronger beer..
[13:37] <Ow3n> There's a restaurant, Belgo, which serves something like 100 different Belgian beers.
[13:37] <maYam> that's why the english always misbehave in belgium
[13:37] <Ow3n> The English people misbehave whever they go unfortunately.
[13:37] <maYam> ah.. well those special beers are really good, yes
[13:38] <maYam> no, that was a generalisation..
[13:38] <Ow3n> I think my favorite there was called Duval.
[13:38] <maYam> Duvel
[13:38] <Ow3n> Yes!
[13:38] <Ow3n> Sorry.
[13:38] <maYam> wohoho..  tricky beer huh!
[13:39] <maYam> after 2 of them i'm in a coma ;)
[13:39] <Ow3n> And then there was er... Quak(???)... which is served in a really weired glass.
[13:39] <maYam> yes!
[13:39] <maYam> kwak!
[13:40] <maYam> brown Leffe is good too
[13:40] <Ow3n> Everyone tries to steal them when they leave the restaurant! So you see everyone coming out of Belgo with bits of wood under their coats!
[13:40] <Ow3n> Yes!!!
[13:40] <maYam> lol
[13:40] <Ow3n> Leffe is damn good. It's my girlfriend's favorite.
[13:41] <maYam> i'm gonna look for some food now..
[13:41] <Ow3n> That's the only Belgian beer which you see served in Oslo.
[13:41] <Ow3n> Yeah. I'm going to have a fag.
[13:41] <maYam> they have leffe in oslo?  cool
[13:41] <Ow3n> (that's a cigarette for the American readers)
[13:41] <Ow3n> Yes, you two should come and visit. We'll even have a sofa in a couple of weeks!
[13:42] <Ow3n> We've lived in this appartment for 3 months with no furniture.
[13:42] Action: Ow3n goes off for a smoke.
[13:48] <maYam> we had the same problem..
[13:49] <maYam> after all these years we still don't have a bed!
[13:52] <Ow3n> Back again. I have to smoke into the fireplace because my girlfriend doesn't like the smell of smoke in the appartment.
[13:52] Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch
[13:53] <maYam> why don't you put the comp by the fireplace then?
[13:53] <Ow3n> Then I'd end up chain smoking again.
[13:53] <ajmitch> hey all
[13:53] <maYam> hey ajmitch
[13:53] Nick change: wtay-zZ -> wtay
[13:53] <wtay> hello
[13:53] <Ow3n> I had a hard time after GUADEC going back to 1 or 2 per day.
[13:53] <Ow3n> Hi ajmitch and wtay.
[13:54] <maYam> 1 or 2 a day??
[13:54] <ajmitch> anything interesting happen while i was gone? ;)
[13:54] <Ow3n> Sleep!
[13:54] <maYam> wow..  i'm chainsmoking alright..  in front of a brown screen
[13:54] <Ow3n> He-he
[13:54] <ajmitch> silly people ;)
[13:59] <Ow3n> Cool. I just had a call to go sailing :)
[14:00] <maYam> sailing..?  you're leading a luxureous life over there i can tell
[14:01] <Ow3n> I've never been before. But we have a friend who's always a sailing adict.
[14:02] <Ow3n> We're going to go to sailing in Cuba in January with him.
[14:02] <Ow3n> So we need to get some practice.
[14:02] <ajmitch> what?? cuba?
[14:02] <maYam> in cuba! waw
[14:03] <Ow3n> ajmitch: Not cuba today. Just the Oslo fjord.
[14:03] <ajmitch> oh, is that all
[14:03] Action: ajmitch hasn't been sailing for a couple of years
[14:04] <Ow3n> Yeah. Still maybe we can smoke a cuban cigar at the same time :)
[14:04] <ajmitch> ;)
[14:04] <Ow3n> I won't even have to stick my head up a chimney to do it either :)
[14:04] <maYam> heheh
[14:06] <Ow3n> Well, I was planning a day of hacking indoors in front of the computer but then... nice day... sailing.... Yup, where did I leave my stripey shirt and sailor's cap?
[14:17] <Ow3n> cya l8r. I'm heading for the wet stuff.
[14:17] <wtay> cya
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[14:17] <ajmitch> lucky...
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[14:31] Nick change: ajmitch -> ajzzzz
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[15:29] <Uraeus> hi
[15:29] <wtay> hello Uraeus
[15:30] Action: Uraeus has just been out playing soccer for the first time this season and is dead tired
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[17:27] Cactus (cactus at port020.bp1.telnet.hu) joined #gstreamer.
[17:27] <Cactus> hi
[17:27] <Cactus> wtay: I've glanced over the iRC logs, how come you're still having problems with bonobo-media video?
[17:28] <hadess> because it's bro0ken :P
[17:28] <Cactus> dude
[17:28] <Cactus> it's not broken per se
[17:28] <hadess> heh
[17:28] <hadess> j/k
[17:29] <Cactus> and even if it was broken, it would be no excuse:)
[17:29] <hadess> lol
[17:35] <wtay> Cactus: Can you create a simple video example for me, I can't seem to get it working...
[17:35] <Cactus> wtay: I've sent you one once:)
[17:35] <wtay> Cactus: oh?
[17:36] Action: wtay check his mail...
[17:36] <Cactus> I mean, a long time ago
[17:36] <Cactus> is it OK if I just send you a single .gob file?
[17:36] <wtay> Cactus: I didn't see that one...
[17:36] <wtay> Cactus: sure
[17:37] <wtay> Cactus: cool
[17:37] <Cactus> also, how do you know video is not working? the media player is not (yet) querying for video
[17:38] <wtay> Cactus: hmm, it isn't? that exaplains..
[17:38] <Cactus> hehh
[17:38] <Cactus> hehehehehe
[17:38] <Cactus> sorry dude
[17:39] <wtay> Cactus: :-)
[17:39] <wtay> so, then it works :)
[17:39] <Cactus> OK I will implement video today or tomorrow and drop you a mail or a msg
[17:39] <wtay> Cactus: cool
[17:40] <wtay> Cactus: what's the best way to check for bonobo-media in configure.in for now?
[17:40] <Cactus> hmm
[17:41] <Cactus> asking the user, maybe? :)
[17:41] <wtay> Cactus: good idea :)
[17:41] <Cactus> I will do a gnome-config script along the video in the player
[17:41] <wtay> Cactus: I'll put the code in gstreamer CVS and not build it by default
[17:42] <wtay> Cactus: users can then cd into that dir manually and it'll work
[17:42] <Cactus> nice
[17:42] <Cactus> but I will create a bonobo-mediaConf.sh file
[17:42] <wtay> somewhat
[17:42] <wtay> even better <g>
[17:42] <Cactus> and then you will be able to use the gnome-config mechanism
[17:42] <wtay> yup
[17:42] Action: wtay is excited
[17:43] <Cactus> for GNOME2, it will use pkg-config anyway
[17:45] <wtay> yeah
[17:45] Action: wtay has to get some food
[17:45] <wtay> brb
[17:45] Nick change: wtay -> wtay-eating
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[17:47] <dobey> hmm
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[18:01] <Cactus> when wtay gets back, someome please tell me that bonobo-mediaConf.sh is in CVS.
[18:03] <hadess> i think he has scoll back =)
[18:03] <hadess> wtay-eating:  bonobo-mediaConf.sh is in CVS.
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[19:02] Action: hadess dances
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[19:19] Nick change: wtay-eating -> wtay
[19:19] <omega_> so, you tried completion yet?
[19:19] <wtay> omega_: yeah, very nice!
[19:19] <omega_> any ideas?
[19:20] <wtay> I had to fix a namespace problem for it to work...
[19:20] <wtay> omega_: just the ones allready mentioned...
[19:21] <omega_> ok
[19:22] <Cactus> wtay: bonobo-mediaConf.sh is in CVS
[19:22] Action: hadess is away: busy
[19:23] <omega_> I also traced the problem to gst_schedule_remove_element()
[19:23] <wtay> Cactus: I did cvs update but I don't see it yet.. this is gnome cvs..
[19:23] <omega_> in a couple hours I'll go and figure out why it's broken and fix it
[19:23] <wtay> omega_: good, does autoplug work now?
[19:23] <omega_> not yet
[19:23] <wtay> ok
[19:23] <wtay> Cactus: I think there is a sync problem somewhere between the gnome cvs repos, no?
[19:24] <omega_> wtay: in gst/autoplug/, update
[19:24] Cactus (cactus at port020.bp1.telnet.hu) left irc: Tank, I need an exit
[19:26] <wtay> neat
[19:27] <omega_> the fault is caused by that function
[19:27] <omega_> but /me is gone for 2hrs now
[19:27] Nick change: omega_ -> omega_church
[19:27] <wtay> omega_church: ?
[19:27] <wtay> _remove?
[19:27] <omega_church> yeah
[19:27] <omega_church> er
[19:27] <omega_church> disconnect, sorry
[19:27] <wtay> oh
[19:28] <wtay> that explains why i couldn't find an error in _remove() :)
[19:40] Action: hadess is back (gone 00:17:36)
[19:40] <wtay> hadess: how that gnomevfs src plugin going?
[19:41] <hadess> i just managed to get my widget done now...
[19:41] <hadess> well, nearly
[19:42] <hadess> i'll finish and clean up my widget tonight and work on the gnomevfs src tomorrow
[19:42] <wtay> hadess: cool
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[20:44] <wtay> yo
[20:45] <shitowax> hi
[20:46] <shitowax> I'm the guy from 3ivx
[20:46] <wtay> cool
[20:46] <wtay> what's the status of your gst work?
[20:46] <shitowax> I got a quicktime parser working and a 3ivx decoder as well
[20:47] <wtay> wow
[20:47] <wtay> ready from prime time?
[20:47] <shitowax> currently I'm working on a 3ivx encoder and a quicktime file writer
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[20:55] <wtay> shitowax: hmm, yeah, happens quite a lot lately
[20:56] <shitowax> the quicktime parser is based on our new openquicktime
[20:56] <wtay> a library?
[20:57] <shitowax> yap, based on QT4Linux
[20:57] <wtay> aha on sourceforge
[20:58] <shitowax> the filewriter is also base on this library
[20:59] <shitowax> Have you planned something for non-opensource plugins ?
[21:00] <wtay> shitowax: like?
[21:02] <shitowax> don't know, web links exigence or something like this ?
[21:02] <wtay> ok
[21:02] <wtay> I guess we can do that
[21:03] <shitowax> do what exactely ?
[21:03] <wtay> put a link on gstreamer.net pointing to your binary only plugins and stuff
[21:03] Nick change: ajzzzz -> aj_uni
[21:04] <shitowax> I was thinking of links from 3ivx.com to gstreamer.net ;)
[21:04] <wtay> shitowax: sure, why not :)
[21:05] <shitowax> What do you think if I put my qt plugins into your CVS ?
[21:06] <wtay> shitowax: perfect
[21:07] <wtay> shitowax: If you wait a little for omega_, he'll give you cvs write access
[21:08] <shitowax> what does that mean "a little" ?
[21:08] <wtay> in about half an hour he should be back
[21:08] <wtay> so he said...
[21:09] <shitowax> ok so I will wait....
[21:10] <shitowax> Do you know anything about my suggestion for the output of the avi/quicktime plugins ?
[21:11] <wtay> shitowax: yeah, it's the right thing to do. We almost have the infrastructure to do that
[21:12] <shitowax> what is missing ?
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[21:12] <wtay> you'll need to insert a plugin while the pipeline is runnning
[21:13] <wtay> and we have to build a new version of the autoplugger that can select and connect the element
[21:14] <wtay> shitowax: wow, quality of the encoder looks really good
[21:14] <shitowax> it's not currently possible ? ... but you almost do it know when you create a local pipe for exemple to decode divx ... Do I miss something ?
[21:15] <wtay> shitowax: that's a hack :)
[21:15] <wtay> shitowax: the plugin selection is done inside the avi demuxer which is not the way to do it
[21:16] <wtay> shitowax: as you explained, the demuxer should just create a pad and the autoplugger would select an appropriate plugin to connect to it
[21:16] <shitowax> you're talking about the 3ivx encoder ... ;) it seems to be simply the best mpeg4 encoder of the world =)
[21:16] <wtay> shitowax: so it seems, good work
[21:16] <wtay> shitowax: I have to see it live of course :)
[21:17] <shitowax> not my fault, I only work for the unix/linux port ;)
[21:18] <wtay> shitowax: are the "media encoder" picures from the m$ DivX encoder?
[21:19] <shitowax> which ones ?
[21:20] <wtay> http://www.3ivx.com/quality.html
[21:22] <shitowax> wmv 7 or 8 I think ...
[21:27] <wtay> shitowax: hehe, it sucks :-)
[21:28] <wtay> XAnim Rev 2.80.0 by Mark Podlipec Copyright (C) 1991-1999. All Rights Reserved
[21:28] <wtay> 3ivx Delta 3 XAnim DLL module loaded (build Wed Mar 21 23:30:13 CET 2001) planar YUV 420 format.
[21:28] <wtay> oooh
[21:28] <shitowax> what ?
[21:28] <wtay> nothing, just donwloaded and installed the codec for xanim
[21:29] <shitowax> it is nice, but there is no sound :( and is slow (no xv)
[21:32] <shitowax> We should release a plugin for the next generation xanim ... which should plays mp3 embedded into quicktime too...
[21:33] <wtay> yup
[21:34] <wtay> great, it plays!
[21:35] <wtay> hmm
[21:37] <shitowax> what ?
[21:37] <wtay> well, the clip I downloaded is not at 25fps... more like 10 or so..
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[21:37] <wtay> yo
[21:37] <Ow3n> yo
[21:37] <wtay> daspophq... or something
[21:38] <Ow3n> ?
[21:39] <wtay> Ow3n: just looking at a movie using the 3ivx plugin in xanim...
[21:39] <Ow3n> Ah, right.
[21:40] Action: Ow3n wondered if daspophq was Flemish
[21:40] <shitowax> sure it is written, only 6.25 for the low and 12.5 for the high quality
[21:40] <wtay> shitowax: yup..
[21:41] <wtay> Ow3n: don't think so... I think it's german..
[21:41] <shitowax> but don't worry, with Xv, it's fine at 500x300 25fps
[21:42] <Ow3n> It sounds like the sequel to the film Das Boot
[21:43] <shitowax> Sorry I don't know anything about these samples ... =) 
[21:44] Action: wtay wonders why omega_ is not here yet..
[21:49] <shitowax> omega is the only one to have administrative rights on the CVS ?
[21:52] <wtay> shitowax: yes
[22:09] <Ow3n> Got to go to bed. I'm knackered! G'night.
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[22:10] <wtay> going to watch a bit of snooker...
[22:11] Nick change: wtay -> wtay-snooker
[22:11] <shitowax> what type of snooker is it ?
[22:14] Nick change: omega_church -> omega_
[22:14] <shitowax> yo
[22:15] <omega_> yo
[22:15] <shitowax> I'm the guy from 3ivx ...
[22:15] <omega_> cool
[22:16] <shitowax> I got a beta quicktime parser and a beta file write 
[22:16] <omega_> cool, they work reasonably well?
[22:17] <shitowax> thy're still beta : got problem to play audio and video at the same time
[22:17] <omega_> ok
[22:18] <omega_> how soon can we see the code?
[22:18] <shitowax> I would like to add it to your CVS ...
[22:18] <omega_> cool, how soon?
[22:19] <shitowax>  maybe tomorrow if you add me to your CVS
[22:19] <omega_> oooh
[22:19] <omega_> is it in a single plugin or two?
[22:20] <shitowax> two in the same directory
[22:20] <omega_> ok.  I'd like to start working towards multiple related elements in the same plugin
[22:20] <omega_> saves file count and other things
[22:21] <shitowax> I also have 3ivx encoder/decoder plugins ...
[22:21] <omega_> yours may already be set up that way because of the required shared code
[22:21] <omega_> cool, but no source?
[22:22] <shitowax> no, sorry ;)
[22:22] <omega_> are they based on a 3ivx codec lib, or is the codec integrated into the plugin?
[22:23] <shitowax> the codec is for the moment integrated in the plugins.
[22:23] <omega_> ok. I'm going to be working on a doc that describes the general architecture I've been thinking of for codecs in general, to allow them to be used more generally
[22:23] <shitowax> the Qt plugins referre to our openquicktime library
[22:23] <omega_> most of the codecs I've seen have APIs that are useless for a lot of things...
[22:24] <omega_> do you have docs for that lib?
[22:24] <shitowax> it' based on QT4L
[22:24] <omega_> ick
[22:24] <omega_> unless you managed to fix it up significantly <g>
[22:24] <shitowax> and there is a doc comming with it
[22:25] <shitowax> it's working nicely for us, after our patches
[22:25] <omega_> same API?
[22:25] <shitowax> with a few additions, and some more soon
[22:26] <omega_> hmm, cause the qt4l API is very incompatible with the gstreamer requirements
[22:26] <omega_> do your qt elements read/write files directly?
[22:26] <shitowax> really ? why ?
[22:26] <shitowax> not at all, that's one of my patches ;)
[22:27] <omega_> ok
[22:27] <omega_> that is one of the major problems, the assumption that qt4l deals with the files
[22:27] <omega_> the whole point of a framework is to let the file come from anywhere, not just a file
[22:29] <shitowax> the inpout/output functions of the quicktime library are now overwritable ...
[22:29] <omega_> ah
[22:29] <omega_> what about codecs?
[22:29] <omega_> they're split for the mux/demux?
[22:29] <omega_> er, from the
[22:30] <shitowax> for the moment, it's exactly the same as for the Avi plugin
[22:30] <omega_> (hmm, wtay has cvs admin right too, afaik)
[22:30] <omega_> hmm, ok, and the plan it to split out the codecs soon though?
[22:30] <shitowax> =)
[22:31] <shitowax> it should be doable
[22:31] <omega_> that's by far the prefered way to do it
[22:31] <shitowax> yep
[22:31] <shitowax> what do you think of a /compressed/'fourcc' mime type ?
[22:32] <omega_> hmmmm
[22:33] <omega_> maybe just video/MJPG or something, put the fourcc in there
[22:33] <omega_> any idea what directshow does there?
[22:35] <shitowax> not sure, but nothing is hardcoded for sure...
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[22:36] <omega_> the docs don't mention types
[22:38] <shitowax> just a question: is it possible to use the aviplugin inside a gstreamer-launch pipe ?
[22:38] <omega_> yes
[22:38] <omega_> it should be possible to use just about any plugin, but there are other problems
[22:38] <omega_> like the syntax isn't fully sufficient yet
[22:39] <omega_> and there's no automatic video output (I'm working on that)
[22:41] <shitowax> I've not succeed in playing a divx from gstreamer-launch ...
[22:41] <omega_> because of the lack of video output
[22:42] <shitowax> but why can I play an mpeg ?
[22:43] <omega_> with -launch?
[22:43] <omega_> only if you use aasink <g>
[22:44] <shitowax> ok, don't really remember what I've done and what I haven't ;)
[22:45] <omega_> you can play mpegs with gstmediaplay, but that's because it creates a window
[22:45] <omega_> chances are you can't play avis because not all the caps stuff is complete yet
[22:45] <omega_> so the autoplugger can't do its thing yet
[22:45] <omega_> er, divx that is
[22:46] <shitowax> anyway, I can currently play 3ivx files with gstmediaplay ... but I need to modify the 3ivx decoder to use the xv buffers I think ...
[22:47] <omega_> cool
[22:47] <omega_> the bufferpool? yeah, check dvdec for an example that might be clearer
[22:47] <shitowax> ok
[22:48] <shitowax> Do you plan to add me as developper to the project, or any special status ?
[22:48] <omega_> if you want to maintain the qt plugins, sure
[22:49] <shitowax> yep, I'd like, especially if we keep the openquicktime library
[22:50] <omega_> yeah.  I'd like to look at that for a while sometime when I have a chance and see if I can come up with more fixes or structural thing to deal with
[22:50] <omega_> I'm more picky about structure than the Heroine guy... ;-)
[22:50] <omega_> which doesn't say much ;-(
[22:51] <omega_> last time I looked at qt4l, it looked a lot like ghostscript (many many files with no clear structure)
[22:51] <shitowax> take a look at our openquicktime cvs snapshot
[22:51] <omega_> also, I get the impression that qt4l does not adhere to the standard when writing files, he keeps changing things
[22:51] <omega_> that should be fixed, which may mean acquiring the official standards docs
[22:52] <shitowax> all the apple quicktime docs are publicly available I think
[22:52] <omega_> ok
[22:53] <omega_> no docs in cvs
[22:53] <omega_> hmmm, are you going to keep the mpg123 derivative in openquicktime?
[22:54] <omega_> or leave existing codecs out, and use gstreamer to get at them?
[22:54] <shitowax> In fact, the library itself contains no plugins
[22:54] <omega_> cvs has mpg123
[22:55] <omega_> and lame3.70
[22:55] <shitowax> yes, we have added an interface for independant simple plugins ...
[22:55] <omega_> what're you're general plans re: gstreamer?
[22:56] <shitowax> in order to use directly the library from any existing linux player
[22:57] <shitowax> 2 different uses of openquicktime: directly with it's own forms of plugins, or you can also use it via gstreamer
[22:57] <omega_> hmmm
[22:59] <shitowax> For example, I use the openquicktime plugins with Xmovie to play 3ivx files
[23:01] <shitowax> and I use the same library to create the quicktime writer and reader for gstreamer without any openquicktime plugin but with gstreamer plugins ...
[23:01] <omega_> what about the quicktime codecs, are they in openquicktime, and will they be individually wrapped as gstreamer elements?
[23:03] <shitowax> no, the openquicktime codecs are not in the library, but are, following the use, either gstreamer plugins or openquicktime simple plugins
[23:03] <omega_> hmm
[23:05] <shitowax> this way, as soon as somebody adds new fonctionalities to the library, any application using it, will benefits from them ...
[23:05] <omega_> right
[23:05] <omega_> I'd tend to put all the quicktime-specific codecs (if any) in the lib
[23:06] <shitowax> then, you will have QT4L.
[23:06] <omega_> but maybe without sucking ;-)
[23:07] <shitowax> I think it's better to have a codec independant library
[23:07] <omega_> yeah
[23:07] <omega_> but then, I wouldn't put a plugin system into the core lib, but into a higher-level lib
[23:07] <omega_> libopenqt.so just has the mux/demux
[23:07] <omega_> some other lib uses that lib to add plugin features for codecs
[23:08] <omega_> then gstreamer just uses libopenqt.so
[23:09] <shitowax> could be doable, good idea :)
[23:10] <omega_> and make sure that the plugin api is simple and clean enough so that gstreamer could load them
[23:10] <omega_> so gstreamer can then load those codecs with a wrapper
[23:11] <omega_> or just use gstreamer all the way ;-)
[23:12] <omega_> I've though before of creating shim APIs for some libraries, so for instance we write libsmpeg.so
[23:12] <omega_> and it has the same API, but underneath uses gstreamer
[23:13] <shitowax> for the moment, our openquicktime library has only 2 codecs implemented
[23:13] <shitowax> 3ivx and mp3
[23:13] <omega_> that would let all programs that use smpeg suddenly handle any media format
[23:13] <omega_> ok
[23:13] <omega_> we could write a shim for the original qt4l to use gstreamer underneath ;-)
[23:14] Nick change: wtay-snooker -> wtay
[23:14] <wtay> yo
[23:14] <omega_> yo
[23:15] <wtay> also make sure to avoid namespace conflicts.. 
[23:15] <omega_> where?
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[23:16] <omega_> doh
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[23:16] <omega_> yeah, namespace conflicts are fun.  the problem is that most people don't use a namespace for their public functions in libs, or even for their headers
[23:16] <omega_> even libxml has that problem with headers: <parser.h>
[23:17] <wtay> omega_: in a library.. lame exports stupid ones like "bitrate" etc..
[23:17] <omega_> yeah
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[23:17] <omega_> whoops
[23:17] <omega_> arts does it too, but both problems are that of the -config script
[23:18] <omega_> xml-config should print -I/usr/include
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[23:18] <omega_> and the code should have <gnome-xml/parser.h>
[23:18] <omega_> though, I thought libxml wasn't gnome-specific....
[23:18] <shitowax> sorry have been kicked by my provider :(
[23:18] <omega_> heh
[23:19] <wtay> mpeg2dec has issues too...
[23:19] <omega_> yeah.  my libmpeg doesn't ;-)
[23:20] <omega_> shitowax: that's something to make sure of with openqt: all your functions have a namespce
[23:20] <omega_> openqt_xyz at all times
[23:20] <wtay> well, at least the ones that are not static
[23:20] <omega_> else you get problems like wtay found with lame: 'bitrate' is a global
[23:21] <omega_> wtay: we should supply patches to these problems to lame
[23:21] <omega_> they're easy....
[23:21] <wtay> omega_: yes, good idea
[23:21] Action: omega_ needs to find a good global symbol search&replace program
[23:21] <shitowax> for the moment, it's quicktime_xyz
[23:21] <wtay> shitowax: good <g>
[23:21] <omega_> ok, switch to openqt for differentiation?
[23:22] <shitowax> We may soon
[23:22] <omega_> so you could coexist with qt4l <g>
[23:22] <omega_> besides, openqt sounds better ;-)
[23:23] <shitowax> Thank you, I've personaly chosen it =)
[23:23] <omega_> wtay: looking at the D$ docs for a sec reminded me that we should be able to use /etc/magic stuff for typefind
[23:23] <omega_> but file-3.33's magic format does produce the right kind of info, nor is there a libfile.so
[23:24] Uraeus (cschalle at c224s9h5.upc.chello.no) joined #gstreamer.
[23:24] <wtay> hi
[23:24] <omega_> file is based on the idea of creating a descriptive string...
[23:24] <omega_> yo
[23:24] <Uraeus> howdy
[23:24] <wtay> omega_: yeah, thought about it... we need caps too, video/mpeg is not enough
[23:25] <wtay> could speed up typefind though
[23:25] <shitowax> So, as soon as I have access to the CVS I will upload my quicktime stuff, OK ?
[23:25] <aj_uni> howdy Uraeus
[23:26] Action: wtay has checked out the latest cvs lame..
[23:26] <omega_> wtay: you have admin access too
[23:27] <wtay> omega_: how do I add a user?
[23:27] <shitowax> bye ...
[23:27] <wtay> cya
[23:27] shitowax (yann at Mix-Annecy-101-2-41.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: 
[23:28] <omega_> admin page
[23:31] <wtay> ok
[23:40] <omega_> I think I found the bug
[23:48] <Uraeus> night
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[23:49] <omega_> oooooh, fixed!
[23:52] <omega_> mixer still has odd problems though
[23:53] <omega_> wtay: ping?
[23:55] Nick change: taazzzz -> taaz
[23:55] <omega_> taaz: tried completion yet?
[23:56] <taaz> i little bit
[23:56] <omega_> like it?
[23:56] <taaz> s/i/a
[23:56] <taaz> sure... kinda neat
[23:56] <wtay> sorry, was away...
[23:56] <omega_> just kinda?
[23:56] <taaz> it was a life changing experiance... i don't know how i lived before the moment you added completion to cvs
[23:57] <omega_> that's more like it ;-)
[23:57] <wtay> hehe
[23:57] <wtay> omega_: getting closer?
[23:58] <omega_> yeah, but mixer still livelocks
[23:58] <wtay> hmm
[23:58] <omega_> and vorbisdec is faulting
[23:58] <omega_> now I have a naming problem
[23:58] <wtay> vorbisdec is broken here too.. (because of wrong libvorbis I think)
[23:58] <omega_> have you looked at autoplugcache?
[23:58] <wtay> yup
[23:59] <omega_> so, after reset, the thing goes through stored buffers
[23:59] <wtay> is the test app supposed to work?
[23:59] <omega_> when it hits the end of the list after reset, it needs to fire a signal
[23:59] <omega_> what should that signal be called? (it's the one the app catches to remove the cache from the pipeline)
[23:59] <wtay> cache_empty?
[00:00] --- Mon May  7 2001
[00:00] <omega_> that works ;-)
[00:00] <omega_> I'm gonna do a commit in a sec
[00:00] <omega_> then it'll work
[00:00] <wtay> ok,
[00:00] <wtay> it's in the disconnect that it segfaults here too
[00:01] <omega_> yeah, I fixed it
[00:01] <omega_> hint: never ignore the compiler warnings
[00:01] <omega_> esp those about vars used before they're initialized
[00:02] Action: wtay can't stand compiler warnings..
[00:02] <omega_> ok. update in gst/ 
[00:03] <omega_> btw, shouldn't it be audio/ogg-vorbis ?
[00:03] <wtay> omega_: i've seen all kinds of mime types for ogg
[00:05] <wtay> application/x-ogg etc..
[00:05] <omega_> uh oh
[00:06] <omega_> here's a potetial problem
[00:06] <wtay> yes, I took audio/x-ogg froma vorbis mailing list..
[00:06] <omega_> autoplugcache is in a cothread, has been reset, and hits the end of the cache
[00:06] <omega_> it fires a signal
[00:07] <omega_> this signal causes the application to remove the element from the pipeline and destroy it
[00:07] <omega_> but the problem is that the destruction of the element eventually will cause the removal of the cothread context
[00:07] <omega_> that context might then be immediately reallocated
[00:07] <omega_> except that the signal handler that does that happens to be in the cothread context of the no-longer-existant autoplugcache
[00:08] <omega_> so we get a new context build right over the top of the current one
[00:08] <wtay> erm.
[00:08] <wtay> can't they be refcounted?
[00:08] <omega_> one method would be to use the new cothread locks to delay cothread destruction until you switch out, yes
[00:08] <omega_> have a list of to-be-culled cothreads
[00:08] <omega_> trylock each one and free it if you get the lock
[00:09] <omega_> rather, don't free, just reinit
[00:09] <omega_> ok, that works
[00:09] <wtay> whooho it works!
[00:10] <omega_> ;-)
[00:10] <omega_> can you get vorbis working too?
[00:10] <wtay> current_playout doesn't have a previous
[00:10] <omega_> right, I'm removing those debugs now
[00:10] <wtay> segfault
[00:10] <omega_> with vorbis?
[00:10] <omega_> yeah, in ogg code
[00:10] <wtay> name issue, i'm sure
[00:10] <wtay> hmm
[00:11] <wtay> or not...
[00:11] <wtay> hmm, ogg_page_serialno
[00:11] <omega_> yup
[00:12] <wtay> have you upgraded vorbis lately?
[00:12] <omega_> nope
[00:13] <wtay> have to look at the code..
[00:24] <wtay> DEBUG(22498: 4)gst_vorbisdec_loop:180: Input does not appear to be an Ogg bitstream.
[00:24] <omega_> whoops
[00:24] <omega_> oh
[00:24] <omega_> hehe
[00:24] <omega_> I forgot to actually reset the cache
[00:24] <omega_>     gtk_object_set (GTK_OBJECT(cache), "reset", TRUE, NULL);
[00:24] <wtay> doh
[00:25] <omega_> do that in each of the mp3 and vorbis if's
[00:25] <wtay> ok
[00:25] <wtay> strange that the program segfaults before actually showing a g_print ...
[00:25] <omega_> neat
[00:25] <omega_> remember though that g_print is buffered I/O
[00:26] <wtay> yeah, but I never saw it buffering stuff like this
[00:26] <omega_> different thread?
[00:26] <omega_> no threads in this example though
[00:26] <wtay> possibly..
[00:27] <omega_> ick, something else broke with vorbis
[00:27] <wtay> still the same..
[00:28] <omega_> it plays fine with -launch
[00:31] <wtay> hmm, yes it does here too now...
[00:31] <wtay> well, I think the cache replay doesn't work..
[00:32] <omega_> hrm, what's a good way to check that?
[00:32] <wtay> gst_util_dump_mem()
[00:32] <omega_> from where?
[00:32] <omega_> attach fakesink and catch the signal maybe
[00:32] <wtay> or inside autoplugcache for now
[00:33] <omega_> or just print out the offset of each buffer setnd
[00:33] <omega_> er, sent
[00:33] <wtay> yeah, I was just thinking about adding a timestamp and print that
[00:33] <omega_> offset in file is set by disksrc, so that should work
[00:33] <wtay> yup
[00:34] <omega_> hmm, it isn't working
[00:34] <omega_> odd
[00:34] <omega_> er
[00:34] <omega_> hmm
[00:34] <omega_> suck
[00:35] <omega_> oh, I'm an idiot
[00:35] <wtay> uhm, maybe decrement buffercount too
[00:35] <omega_> uh?
[00:35] <wtay> err, hum, you don't remove the buffer from the cache?
[00:35] <omega_> when?
[00:35] Action: wtay actually reads the code now..
[00:36] <omega_> the cache never gets freed until the cache is either flushed (not implemented) or destroyed (not implmeented)
[00:36] <wtay> ok
[00:37] <omega_> but I did something stupid with the datastructure
[00:37] <wtay> cache_start not set?
[00:37] <omega_> not properly
[00:37] <wtay> hmm, yes it is..
[00:38] <omega_> fixed
[00:38] <omega_> committed
[00:38] <omega_> it plays oggs now ;-)
[00:39] <omega_> I leave in ~20min
[00:39] <omega_> the problem was that I always moved to the prev in the list before grabbing a buffer
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[00:40] <omega_> and when I reset, it set it to the first buffer, which promptly got skipped
[00:40] <wtay> neat
[00:40] <omega_> so I initialize the list now with a NULL element, and set the cache_start to that
[00:40] <omega_> converting to grab buffer then move prev would have broken other things
[00:40] <omega_> yo hadess
[00:40] <hadess> yo gang
[00:40] <wtay> yo hadess
[00:41] <hadess> heya wtay
[00:41] <omega_> now cache_empty still causes many problems
[00:42] <omega_> a neverending stream of CRITICALs
[00:42] <wtay> uhm
[00:42] <omega_> we need to think seriously about the ERROR, non-existant FATAL, and assertion systems
[00:44] <wtay> yup
[00:44] <wtay> I feel like I want to look into object destruction some more..
[00:44] <omega_> please do ;-)
[00:45] <hadess> huh, i broke the canvas :/
[00:45] <taaz> this project is growing into GStreamerOS
[00:45] <omega_> whoops.  stick a brush through it, or torque the frame too much?
[00:45] <omega_> taaz: hehehehe
[00:45] <omega_> taaz: remember, as soon as we can read mail, we're done
[00:46] Action: taaz writes mailsrc/mailsink
[00:46] <hadess> heh
[00:47] <omega_> though....
[00:47] Action: wtay remembers omega_ joking about gstreamer becoming an OS...
[00:48] Action: wtay writes a bashsrc 
[00:48] Action: omega_ remembers telling wtay to shoot him if it got that far
[00:49] <wtay> hehe
[00:49] <omega_> ick
[00:49] <omega_> this is even nastier than I thought
[00:50] <omega_> as soon as the signal handler finishes, it returns to the stack of the cache, which tries to pull
[00:50] <omega_> it fails utterly because it's just been orphaned, and it keeps doing that for all of time
[00:51] <wtay> need to check for COTHREAD stopping?
[00:51] <omega_> maybe should, among other things, wrap emit in a function that checks to see if the element is even still valid
[00:51] <omega_> no, it's mid-loop
[00:51] <wtay> so?
[00:51] <omega_> it's even worse than that, it needs to switch to 0 immediately
[00:52] <omega_> remember, the element is getting disconnected and deleted in the middle of its loopfunc
[00:52] <omega_> then the signal handler lands right back in the middle of that code
[00:52] <wtay> on delete, set COTHREAD_STOPPING flag?
[00:52] <omega_> no
[00:52] <omega_> cothread_stopping doesn't happen until the end of the loop
[00:52] <omega_> this emit is at the top
[00:52] <omega_> immediately after is a _pull
[00:52] <omega_> which goes into NULL-land
[00:53] <wtay> I know, I mean the scheduler sets the flag, and the cache checks for it right after the signal?
[00:53] <omega_> similar issue is needed for state
[00:53] <omega_> yes, the emit wrapper used in elements will check and switch out if it's set
[00:53] <omega_> basically, if the code returns with some number of things no longer true
[00:54] <omega_> like parent != prevparent
[00:54] <omega_> state != prevstate
[00:54] <wtay> yeah, I remember us discussing that <g>
[00:54] <omega_> yeah, matth and I talked about it some too
[00:54] <wtay> so, gst_signal_emit is born, whohoo
[00:55] <omega_> but it's an element-specific functon
[00:55] <wtay> yes
[00:55] <omega_> fixed it somewhat, but now it's screwed somewhere else
[00:59] <taaz> more holes in the dam!  quick, stick your finger in another one!
[00:59] Action: omega_ sticks his head in one
[00:59] <omega_> mu
[00:59] <omega_> well, /me has to go now
[01:00] <omega_> this one looks easier
[01:00] <omega_> ttyal
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[01:00] <wtay> cya
[01:00] Action: wtay talks to himself..
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[01:04] <wtay> hi
[01:18] <wtay> time for bed...
[01:19] Nick change: wtay -> wtay-zZz
[01:19] <wtay-zZz> cya
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[02:56] Nick change: aj_uni -> ajmitch
[03:15] Nick change: hadess -> hadezZz
[03:32] Nick change: ajmitch -> aj_uni
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[06:06] <omega_> http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/
[06:11] Action: taaz needs to buy a camera
[06:11] <omega_> I quized my dad on the date of the title picture
[06:11] <omega_> he guessed '84
[06:12] <omega_> off by 74 years, that's not bad
[06:12] <omega_> only half of the length of the history of photography ;-)
[06:15] <taaz> quality is pretty darn good
[06:15] <omega_> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=01/05/06/2135224&cid=38
[06:15] <omega_> that says it all