[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI (see comment 67)

[bugzilla-daemon at bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501

--- Comment #75 from Eyal Rozenberg <eyalroz at technion.ac.il> ---
(Collection of comments resulting from catching up on the discussion; my main
point is in comment #73 above.)

* I've just read the Reddit thread mentioned earlier. There was about one
person who said a ribbon interface is superior / more useful than
menubar+toolbar. Others were either against ribbons (some with a passion), or
supporting it because that's what people would want/need since they're used to
them from MS Office. So it doesn't seem users are themselves clamoring for a
ribbon, but rather that some users _assume_ this is necessary/important for MS
Office transition.

* I don't buy the implicit dichotomy between "enterprise" users who want
menus+toolbars and  "community" users who want ribbons. My experience is that
most or all users (including less-computer-literate ones) fare better with a
menu+toolbars interface. And no less importantly - with an interface that is
static rather than dynamic. Additionally, people in our "community" are not so
enamoured with MS Office as to expect us to copy it. And finally, like Dieter
said - MS Office UI is a moving target anyway.

* Telesto makes a good point in comment #69: With multiple UI modes, every one
needs to see a bunch of work put into it, initially and for ongoing
maintenance. This hasn't been completed. As it stands, Some buttons are missing
(bug 138440 just filed) , small-vs-large button choices are weird, some
placement is confusing  (like the formatting marks next to LTR-RTL) etc. 


----

@JohnMills:

> The... logical UI choice would be the tabbed interface... as this is the UI that the vast majority of users would be most familiar with.

Users are familiar with toolbars, with menus and with buttons. Ribbons are less
common than all of those. Also, if it were logical to offer users what they are
used to, then - it is logical for them to just stay with Microsoft Office. That
_is_ what they're most used to, after all.

> Microsoft spent a huge amount of time, money and effort when designing this interface

It also spent a lot of time, money and effort on UI changes in Windows Vista,
and that was a flop. Or - remember clippy? ... MS Office has its better and
worse features - we pick and choose, and offer something else.

> pragmatism is fulfilling the wishes of what users want. 

Pragmatism is "a practical approach to problems and affairs" (Merriam-Webster
dictionary). That's really not the same as striving to fullfil people's wishes.

However, in our case - we're not even talking about people's wishes. Correct me
if I'm wrong, but I don't believe we have empirical evidence to suggest that
our users want ribbons over toolbars and menubars. Your statement in comment #2
suggests you are _deducing_ this is the case; but you've not justified this
deduction AFAICT.

> Does changing the default UI benefit LibreOffice in the longer term by bringing new users to the software and hopefully contributors to the project?

Well, I would say "no", but - you're making several assumptions here. I would
say that encouraging users to drop ribbons benefits LO in the long term; that a
uniform (non-ribbon) interface has support benefits; that it benefits our
_users_ in the medium and long term; and that ribbons would have a neutral or
detrimental effect w.r.t. attracting contributors.

----

@VStuartFoote: Agree with (almost) all your comments :-)

----

@RizalMuttaqin:

>  [to] some extent we should look at what familiar with majority of users

If menus and toolbars were unfamiliar to most users, I would agree. But they
are no less familiar than ribbons. Just - not in MS-Office.

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