[Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

[NoOp]

On 02/17/2012 01:20 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> NoOp wrote (17-02-12 05:31)
>> On 02/15/2012 02:44 AM, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
> 
>>> The current (3.5) design looked as the best option, was in the daily
>>> builds [http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/] for several
>>> months, and nobody complained - so we were happy with it; what a pity
>>> that you haven't pointed it out earlier :-
>>
>> There will be much "you should have tested", "you should have pointed it
>> out earlier"; unfortunately, the primary users will not have discovered
>> the "improvement"/"feature" was released in the 'new&  improved version'
>> and would not have noticed until they upgraded from 3.4 to 3.5.
> 
> I truly find that people active here in the community, could have spoken 
> up earlier and if did not do so, now should not support complains from 
> others in the sense that they agree that it is a bad decision.

Cor, I appreciate the comment & concern. However please keep in mind
that thousands of users that are just now enticed by:
<http://www.libreoffice.org/download/>
<quote>
LibreOffice 3.5.0 Final (2012-02-14)

Our latest, feature rich version
</quote>
will have downloaded 3.5, overwritten their 3.x and suddenly discover
that 3.5 has *significantly* changed the display and ability to view and
work with documents as in previous versions.

Yes, I suppose that I could have spoken up earlier if noticed the issue
directly during casual tests of 3.5. However, would it have actually
made a difference? I think not given the responses on this list, the dev
list, and the user list.

Further, I don't understand "complains from others in the sense that
they agree that it is a bad decision". This list states: "Meeting ground
for hackers and UX experts - get advise here for user
experience questions.
Please confine discussions about implementation details and
decision-making about the right UX solution to the respective lists.]"

Would you care to clarify?

For some obtuse reason this list seems to have become the defacto place
for all decisions LO UX (*User* interface). <
Meeting ground for hackers and UX experts - get advise here for user
experience questions.

What exactly does that mean? Michael Meeks labels me as a 'whinger'[1]
simply for stating my opinions regarding the issue on this list. Fair
enough... I'm a 'whinger'. Cor deems that I should have spoken up
earlier and "should not support complains from others". What a positive
reaction from all of you.

Cedric responds to:
> 
>>> There will be much "you should have tested", "you should have
>>> pointed it out earlier"; unfortunately, the primary users will not
>>> have discovered the "improvement"/"feature" was released in the
>>> 'new & improved version' and would not have noticed until they
>>> upgraded from 3.4 to 3.5.
> 
> I consider that people able to post to the dev / ux-advise / design
> mailing lists are also able to download daily builds and have a look at
> them before the release. And if they can't do that they can also
> participate in the RC testing cycle: they aren't "primary users" as you
> mention: the "primary users" never shout on these mailing lists.

My comment to Cedric is this: users were not aware of this list (or your
changes) prior to the issue being raised on the LO users list. How would
they have known? What channels would/should they have taken to
advise/protest/whatever regarding your changes? No users were aware of
ux-adv (oddly named as "libreoffice-ux-advise" as it seems that no
"users" can offer advise here without being blasted by the powers to be.

Certainly LO (developers, testers, advocates, et al) are experienced
enough to expect feedback issue on release changes. I can't understand
why this issue, which is a *significant* change to the basic document
wasn't expected as well.

@Cedric: you can '/// autocensored really harsh remark!' all you wish.
I'm disappointed that you take that attitude when someone posts comments
regarding the issue(s) with your significant changes to the basic LO
Writer basic page look/feel/workflow. You state:
"As mentioned earlier, asking for feedback on the users lists is a black
hole." So just how are such significant changes decided?
  Nevermind:
"You're repeating yourself... I already spent too much of my hacking
time to reply to your email. Consider me as a dead body from now in that
discussion."

So... I'm a whinger & a troll simply for stating an objection to a
significant change in LO 3.5.
  We've established that it's not acceptable to forward/promote/backup
anothers complaints due the to the fact that I should have noticed the
problem earlier and complained then (that is what you are implying Cor
and Cedric, correct?). So be it. Best of luck and my sincere apologies
for taking your time. I'll not disturb your list any further.

Gary Lee

[1]
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/whinger
...