[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Killed the ButtonBar in slide sorter
michel.renon at free.fr
Wed Sep 26 04:45:04 PDT 2012
Hi Cor, Jan,
Le 25/09/12 16:00, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :
>> Therefore the good OpenOffice.org developers and people conducted a
>> large project some years ago, Renaissance.
>> Of course the toolbar is one of the changes the was a result from that.
>> I guess all the work was done, because many obvious actions are not easy
>> enough accessible for Joe-average. And that these were only the first
>> steps in a route to make Impress (&more) more contemporary.
>> The little pop-ups fit more in modern UI (-expectations) I guess then
>> context menu's - let alone short-cuts and pull down menus...
> I don't think I agree with you here. The touch-based devices need to
> have everything shown, nothing appearing based on a presence of a mouse
It's a technical fact : touch interfaces have no 'hover' event.
But look at what's happening with Nautilus : devs are making big changes
to prepare for touch interface. The mistake is that they change
*current* desktop version so that *future* versions may work on tablets.
Since last year, users just can see Nautilus has less and less
behaviors. Devs just say "we know what's good for you : we'll bring them
back later for touch".
The result is that the Nautilus project is forked and will be replaced
We have to realize what for next 2 years (and more...), most LO users
will still use a computer (desktop or laptop) to edit.
Your modification will be useful for the tablet version of LO, but maybe
not for the desktop version.
> and it seems to me as a good trend in general.
This is a personal and subjective opinion.
UI decisions should be taken based on facts, analysis, polls, statistics.
I also made that mistake : few months ago, I made a proposal for another
"Insert" menu, based on most used items, well most items I used and
supposed others also used. In the design list, I had some immediate and
strict feed-back : don't suppose, provide real and pertinent usage
values otherwise propose something different. They were right.
> Please note
> that Renaissance is 3-4 years old project.
A good idea will never be obsolete ;-)
> I have heard complaints about this Button bar from several people, and
> no 'oh, I love these appearing buttons' - so I believe we are fine. The
> same with the appearing / disappearing header / footer controls - lots
> of complaints that it is too much disruptive, so I believe that not
> using any controls that appear after a timeout only supports that the
> above mentioned trend is Good :-)
I may be the first, but let me tell you that I find the new
header/footer control *very useful* !
The complaints I heard about OOo/LO were all about the "old"
look/design. The header/footer control, while not perfect, brings
something new that's really welcomed.
And I wish we can use that idea for table edition and much more.
Why not allow users to enable/disable such appearing-controls by
Everybody should be happy :
- beginners and average users won't see changes between versions
- power users may choose what they prefer
As a general point of view on this subject, I would say that it shows
several problems in the design team (that's why I'm CCing to design list) :
- there is a lack of long-term vision for LO's UI/UX : a vision, a
roadmap, with tenets. Some big users (administrations, companies...)
need that kind of information so that they can plan training, migration .
For example :
- should we use or avoid appearing / disappearing UI elements ?
- should we use floating and/or docked panels ?
When a decision is made, it should not change for several years (3-5)
- a developer may decide to make big UI changes, just because he talked
with few users : it's a complete by-pass of the existing UI process
(whiteboards, proposals, discussions, vote) ; it may also bring some big
- most important, it may changes/revert recent modifications --> users
will be disturbed by those UI flip/flop (for example see previous
changes between Rythmbox and Banshee in Ubuntu)
(please see absolutely no offense to you Jan, I'm just trying to analyze
the situation ; and the context of my feedback is that I have not enough
time to work, propose on the UI/UX team, so it's just a little
reflexion/suggestion ; but as a simple user, I would be very disturbed
by such changes)
 And in France, last week we had an important announce about OSS and
the administration : they'll study different projects and choose some of
them. Nothing is decided between LO/OOo : Each project's team has to
prove his project is stable, well organized, well structured and has a
 I just tried Thunderbird 18 (aurora channel) and the main window has
no more menu bar ! Menus are now in a popup button on the right.
But the problem is that the compose window still has the standard menu
bar : inconsistency, users will be disturbed.
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