[Openicc] "successive disclosure of complexity"
Scott Geffert
scott at cdiny.com
Fri May 6 04:24:13 PDT 2011
Eureka!
Now you are talking. This approach respects all users which is the way it should be. If this were the case across different applications I think you have a winning strategy. This also seems to enable a smoother ongoing development roadmap as technology changes. Options can be added over time without having to dramatically alter the overall user experience.
Scott
On May 6, 2011, at 4:25 AM, openicc-request at lists.freedesktop.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Passing settings to Gutenprint (edmund ronald)
> 2. Re: GoSoC 2011: CPD and target printing (Robert Krawitz)
> 3. Re: GoSoC 2011: CPD and target printing (edmund ronald)
> 4. Re: GoSoC 2011: CPD and target printing (Robert Krawitz)
> 5. Re: Passing settings to Gutenprint (Kai-Uwe Behrmann)
> 6. Re: smolt, EDID collection (Richard Hughes)
> 7. Re: Passing settings to Gutenprint (Jan-Peter Homann)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 00:36:03 +0200
> From: edmund ronald <edmundronald at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Openicc] Passing settings to Gutenprint
> To: OpenICC Liste <openicc at lists.freedesktop.org>, Kai-Uwe Behrmann
> <ku.b at gmx.de>, Robert Krawitz <rlk at alum.mit.edu>, Graeme Gill
> <graeme at argyllcms.com>
> Message-ID: <BANLkTimovOnZuah1-rUFYcHucTBPx_xTiw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> BTW, I think we still have an architectural item open, which is finding a
> way to pass the XML settings -which can be extensive, I guess- to
> Gutenprint.
> I do understand that in many cases these settings will have been extracted
> from a profile.
>
> If this is trivial or has been dealt with, please say so ...
>
> Edmund
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 21:16:21 -0400
> From: Robert Krawitz <rlk at alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Openicc] GoSoC 2011: CPD and target printing
> To: Open ICC Color Managment <openicc at lists.freedesktop.org>
> Cc: openicc at lists.freedesktop.org
> Message-ID:
> <201105060116.p461GLLO012467 at dsl092-065-009.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net>
>
> On Thu, 5 May 2011 14:45:36 -0700, Hal V. Engel wrote:
>>
>> Keep in mind that in the CPD UI design EVERYTHING, other than which
>> printer queue to use and how many copies to print, is treated as
>> advanced options and are only made visible to the user if the user
>> specifically selects to display one or more subsets of these
>> options. In addition, for GutenPrint, and perhaps other drivers,
>> these advanced options already include things that 99+% of users
>> will never touch (ink limits for example). The user can control
>> exactly what advanced options are included in the options area of
>> the UI (it does not have tabs) so the user can decide exactly what
>> groups of options are visible. This UI design is specifically to
>> deal with the issue of user friendliness without a loss of power
>> features for users that want full control. The idea is that by
>> default users get only the absolute minimum options in the UI. Just
>> enough to "just print it" (what ever "it" is) and nothing more.
>> This is limited to what printer do you want to use and how many
>> copies do you want.
>
> This is dangerous -- since in general the printing dialog doesn't know
> what kind or size of paper is loaded in the machine, or in some cases
> what ink cartridges are loaded, it could make bad choices, possibly
> disastrously so (e. g. if it picks matte black ink, but glossy paper
> is loaded, the ink may come off on the rollers).
>
> --
> Robert Krawitz <rlk at alum.mit.edu>
>
> Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
> Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- http://ProgFree.org
> Project lead for Gutenprint -- http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net
>
> "Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
> --Eric Crampton
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 03:27:14 +0200
> From: edmund ronald <edmundronald at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Openicc] GoSoC 2011: CPD and target printing
> To: Open ICC Color Managment <openicc at lists.freedesktop.org>
> Message-ID: <BANLkTinNpSs1vPcDHjMqXXBh8955F1_EGg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Indeed, a similar entertaining feature is a driver which defaults to the ink
> not loaded, and forces an immediate ink change :)
>
> Edmund
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:16 AM, Robert Krawitz <rlk at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> This is dangerous -- since in general the printing dialog doesn't know
>> what kind or size of paper is loaded in the machine, or in some cases
>> what ink cartridges are loaded, it could make bad choices, possibly
>> disastrously so (e. g. if it picks matte black ink, but glossy paper
>> is loaded, the ink may come off on the rollers).
>>
>> --
>> Robert Krawitz <rlk at alum.mit.edu>
>>
>> Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
>> Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- http://ProgFree.org
>> Project lead for Gutenprint -- http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net
>>
>> "Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
>> --Eric Crampton
>> _______________________________________________
>> openicc mailing list
>> openicc at lists.freedesktop.org
>> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openicc
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 21:32:20 -0400
> From: Robert Krawitz <rlk at alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Openicc] GoSoC 2011: CPD and target printing
> To: Open ICC Color Managment <openicc at lists.freedesktop.org>
> Cc: openicc at lists.freedesktop.org
> Message-ID:
> <201105060132.p461WKFK012550 at dsl092-065-009.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net>
>
> On Thu, 5 May 2011 13:38:29 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
>>
>> On May 5, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Alastair M. Robinson wrote:
>>>
>>> Having a CPD flag that applications use to signal that "advanced"
>>> options should be shown would be just about tolerable, I suppose,
>>> but still seems like needlessly sacrificing functionality on the
>>> altar of user-friendliness to me. (And we see so much of that
>>> these days that some of us, myself included, are admittedly
>>> hyper-sensitive and quick to shout if we see any hint of it
>>> happening!)
>>
>> This is not a hill I'm going to die on. However, I just think we're
>> talking about an extreme fraction of users who need to even use the
>> feature so why subject real estate, even in advanced options. This
>> will certainly be the least used advanced option.
>>
>> It isn't merely about user friendly. It's about use necessary. I
>> just don't see the vast majority of apps needing such a control,
>> therefore there is no sacrificed function.
>
> I don't agree with this reasoning. I think it's important to have all
> such options available from all programs with a print dialog; we
> should figure out how to present them most effectively.
>
> There are two schools of thought that I see here. One, which seems to
> be exemplified by GNOME (yes, I'm calling that project out by name),
> is to have UI experts determine the minimum set of features needed by
> users and present an absolute minimal interface. The other, which I
> greatly prefer, is what a former colleague of mine described as
> "successive disclosure of complexity".
>
> What that phrase means is that inexperienced users, or those with
> simple needs, should see a very simplified view of the system --
> possibly even as simple as Hal's proposal that they only see the name
> of the printer and how many copies or the like. As people's needs
> grow, they can access more elaborate functionality. Most
> well-designed applications actually operate like that -- think
> OpenOffice.org, where you can simply start typing into a text
> document, but as you learn more, you learn how to use spreadsheets,
> with increasingly elaborate functionality as your needs changed. One
> could argue that the default set of toolbars presents too much
> information at the start, but ultimately, if you need to do things
> like mail merge, that functionality is there.
>
> I don't see why this shouldn't apply to printing, and in particular, I
> don't see why the CPD shouldn't be designed along the same lines so
> that every application has the same dialog (which also helps reduce
> confusion). In particular, just because we don't see a certain use
> case with a certain application doesn't mean that somebody else
> won't.
>
> --
> Robert Krawitz <rlk at alum.mit.edu>
>
> Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
> Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- http://ProgFree.org
> Project lead for Gutenprint -- http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net
>
> "Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
> --Eric Crampton
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 06:53:31 +0200 (MEST)
> From: Kai-Uwe Behrmann <ku.b at gmx.de>
> Subject: Re: [Openicc] Passing settings to Gutenprint
> To: edmund ronald <edmundronald at gmail.com>
> Cc: OpenICC Liste <openicc at lists.freedesktop.org>
> Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1105060649480.5370 at roma.rasena>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> Am 06.05.11, 00:36 +0200 schrieb edmund ronald:
>> BTW, I think we still have an architectural item open, which is finding a
>> way to pass the XML settings -which can be extensive, I guess- to
>> Gutenprint.
>> I do understand that in many cases these settings will have been extracted
>> from a profile.
>>
>> If this is trivial or has been dealt with, please say so ...
>
> Robert did mentioned the according API in Gutenprint. SamplyICC and
> Oyranos can handle the embedding and extraction of ICC meta tag
> informations on a API level. IccXML can work with a text editor. We still
> did not put these things together.
>
> kind regards
> Kai-Uwe Behrmann
> --
> developing for colour management
> www.behrmann.name + www.oyranos.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 09:16:55 +0100
> From: Richard Hughes <hughsient at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Openicc] smolt, EDID collection
> To: Open ICC Color Managment <openicc at lists.freedesktop.org>
> Message-ID: <BANLkTi=zc0Shd+S1JNRGwEVGzpU2NsVcLg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 5 May 2011 22:26, edmund ronald <edmundronald at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I would love to get my hands on code that can read EDID direct from an
>> external monitor.
>
> How do you mean? GCM just reads the EDID atom on the output from X --
> see http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-color-manager/tree/src/gcm-x11-output.c#n354
> for details.
>
> Richard.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 10:25:02 +0200
> From: Jan-Peter Homann <homann at colormanagement.de>
> Subject: Re: [Openicc] Passing settings to Gutenprint
> To: Open ICC Color Managment <openicc at lists.freedesktop.org>
> Message-ID: <4DC3B05E.8020008 at colormanagement.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Hello all,
> We have to use cases here
>
> 1) colormanaged print pipeline:
> Here I would recommend, that pdftoraster embeddd the ICC-profile with
> embedded Gutenprint settings into the raster-file for Gutenprinttoraster.
> Gutenprinttoraster parses the rasterfile for an embedded ICC-profile
> with Gutenprint-settings, if profile and settings are detected,
> Gutenprint imports temporarly this settings.
> If nothing is detected, Gutenprint uses default settings or settings
> specified trhough PPD options.
>
> 2) tdevice state printing
> Gutenprints gets an rasterfile without embedded profile and settings.
> Gutenprint settings are defined through the CPD advanced settings.
> If advanced users want to do applications based printer color
> management, they create through CPD a preset with the preferred
> Gutenprint settings.
>
>
>
> Am 06.05.11 00:36, schrieb edmund ronald:
>> BTW, I think we still have an architectural item open, which is
>> finding a way to pass the XML settings -which can be extensive, I
>> guess- to Gutenprint.
>> I do understand that in many cases these settings will have been
>> extracted from a profile.
>>
>> If this is trivial or has been dealt with, please say so ...
>>
>> Edmund
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> openicc mailing list
>> openicc at lists.freedesktop.org
>> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openicc
>
>
> --
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