Unified autostart scripts directory

John (J5) Palmieri johnp at redhat.com
Sat Jul 2 18:55:40 EEST 2005 

On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 15:34 +0000, seventh guardian wrote:
> Ok, we could make a framework spec that in the future could support all of 
> those improvements, but for now it may only allow autostarting.. Do you all 
> agree?

I can agree with that.  I just want to make sure the spec becomes
incremental, sort of let's not jump too fast.  I think eventually we
will jump but we need to slow down and perhaps write up what each of the
project have done to solve the problem and what problems they are
solving.   

> I like the idea of extending the support for other events, like shutdown or 
> media pluging, or even keypresses (is this already spec'd?)

I think this is an entirely different problem domain.

> , but first of 
> all it should be something structured, and not just a bunch of loose ideas.

Agreed.
 
> It should be a generic and modular system, where someone (read some DM) 
> could add their own events and have them supported as well.

Again a different problem domain than a service framework (of course the
service framework could be used to respond to events but then you really
don't need a set of events but a set of desktop interfaces which should
be defined on a per domain basis)

> As I said, I used kde for some time, and I like the way it handles these 
> things, and also gvm is something we should look at. So we are all to gain 
> with everybody's experience, and I hope they join the effort.

g-v-m is really just policy reacting to HAL.  HAL is the grand unifier. 

> We already have some oppinions from the kde side, it would be nice if 
> someone from other DM's could throw in other ideas.. After all, it should be 
> something we all agree with. Also, if someone "inside" could post how these 
> things are implemented already in the various DM's, it would be nice.

sounds good but I think the discussion is getting to broad.  There is
already working code for things like suspend hooks and they are talking
about it on some of the other lists.  

I am interested in a service framework.  Much of the work has already
been done in that area with respect to D-Bus's service startup
(activation).  All I want to do is see our implementation working in
GNOME, check out KDE's and XFCE's solutions and then come together at
that point to consolidate on directories, files formats and d-bus
interfaces.  

Keep things simple.  Start with something we can all agree on
(hopefully ;-)  which is a user directory where a desktop file can be
dropped so it starts up on login.

> If it was a votting, I would definitelly vote for a generic event 
> configuration system. Waiting for oppinions and info..

I cringe when I hear the word "generic"  - a.k.a. a highly flexible
system that can do nothing well.  If you want generic there is HAL.  It
is a database and event system.  Focus on specifics.

> >From: Waldo Bastian <bastian at kde.org>
> >To: xdg at lists.freedesktop.org
> >Subject: Re: Unified autostart scripts directory
> >Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 13:30:16 +0200
> >
> >On Friday 01 July 2005 21:59, John (J5) Palmieri wrote:
> > > Having an autostart for simple programs and daemons sounds fine to me
> > > but I think there is a bit too much being put into this.  In order to
> > > have a true dependency system of which we are working on with
> > > libgnomeservice in gnome cvs, it gets a bit more complicated than just
> > > dropping a file in the right location.
> > >
> > > I think having a spec for easily dropping a desktop file in a common
> > > location to autostart a program is fine but I think we should let
> > > projects explore the more complicated stuff before writing up a spec
> > > that will please no one.  Projects have to define and find their needs
> > > before we can have a unified system.
> >
> >Within KDE we have a reasonable understanding what the needs are (for KDE) 
> >and
> >we have an implementation that meets those needs. With that said, if you
> >think it's more appropriate to limit the fd.o spec for now to the "allowing 
> >a
> >user to autostart programs they would like autostarted in their session"
> >use-case then that's ok with me.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Waldo
> >
> > > From the stuff I am reading in the thread, each iteration getting more
> > > complex than the last, it just seems to be moving into the same traps I
> > > have seen recent fd.o projects falling into.  That is namely writing a
> > > spec before figuring out what the real needs are.
> > >
> > > The problem that the simple directory solves is allowing a user to
> > > autostart programs they would like autostarted in their session.
> > >
> > > The problem that a desktop services framework solves is completely
> > > different and largely desktop environment dependent.  In the end we may
> > > want some sort of unification but I just don't this is the point in time
> > > to discuss writing specs for it.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 16:43 +0000, seventh guardian wrote:
> > > > Hi!
> > > >
> > > > After being using kde since ever, I gave a try to xfce. The real pain 
> >was
> > > > to reconfigure the "basic" stuff, like autostarting programs and
> > > > xmodmaps. I used to have these scripts in ~/.kde/Autostart, but that
> > > > obviously doesn't work for xfce.. The xmodmaps were solved after 
> >getting
> > > > to know the ~/.xprofile file, but for the starting of programs, that 
> >was
> > > > a tricky thing.
> > > >
> > > > Currently, kde has the autostart dir in ~/.kde/Autostart, fluxbox has 
> >an
> > > > autostart script in ~/.fluxbox/startup, and xfce uses the
> > > > ~/Desktop/Autostart. This last dir is suposed to be a standard, but 
> >the
> > > > fact is that it's only used (as far as I know) by xfce.
> > > >
> > > > Also, having a dir in ~/Desktop/ for autostarting programs is rather
> > > > annoying, as ~/Desktop/ should be used only for the things showing up 
> >on
> > > > the desktop. In xfce this poses no problem, because it doesn't have
> > > > desktop icons, but I also use kde (at least for now), and it just gets 
> >in
> > > > the way..
> > > >
> > > > So, following the XDG base dir specs, I sugest using
> > > > $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/autostart/ for this. It has the advantage of using an
> > > > unified location, and not getting in the way (as it can be hidden if
> > > > using for instance ~/.config).
> > > >
> > > > Also, this idea could be extended if someone wanted to run DM specific
> > > > programs. So one could use $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/autostart/kde/ for kde
> > > > specific startup scripts, $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/autostart/gnome/ for gnome,
> > > > and $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/autostart/all/ for general startup scripts 
> >(scripts
> > > > that run for all DM's).
> > > >
> > > > Waiting for feedback.. Cheers,
> > > >     Renato Caldas
> > > >
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-- 
John (J5) Palmieri <johnp at redhat.com>

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