[desktop entry spec] new FullName key

[William Jon McCann]

(this time to the list)

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Christian Rose<menthos at menthos.com> wrote:
> On 8/7/09, William Jon McCann <william.jon.mccann at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Christian Rose<menthos at menthos.com> wrote:
>>  > On 8/3/09, Shaun McCance <shaunm at gnome.org> wrote:
>>  >> On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 09:41 +0300, John Tapsell wrote:
>>  >>  > > Not sure what you mean with 'supporting GenericName', but the current
>>  >>  > > GNOME HIG recommendations are the way they are precisely because of the
>>  >>  > > translatability concerns of combining Name and GenericName
>>  >>  > > programatically.
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Could someone give an example where programmatically combining would
>>  >>  > fail, if the combining was done as  i18n("%1 %2")  or even i18n("%1 -
>>  >>  > %2")  ?
>>  >>
>>  >> In languages that have case declensions, "%1 %2" and "%1 - %2"
>>  >>  could involve the GenericName being written differently.  So
>>  >>  you might write "Epiphany - Web Browser", but "Epiphany Webo
>>  >>  Browsero".  (Completely made up example, of course.)
>>  >>
>>  >>  You can't reliably translate GenericName to fit into one or
>>  >>  the other, because different implementations might decide to
>>  >>  display things differently.
>>  >
>>  > Another example would be Scandinavian languages like e.g. Swedish,
>>  > where the definitive article is a suffix of the noun, and if and when
>>  > you use a name to distinguish the noun, i.e. you refer to a specific
>>  > instance of the noun, you have to use the definitive article. Doing
>>  > otherwise would be incorrect.
>>  >
>>  > Examples:
>>  >
>>  > "Web Browser" (as in any web browser) == "Webbläsare"
>>  >
>>  > "Epiphany Web Browser" (as in *the* Epiphany web browser, not just any
>>  > web browser) => "Webbläsaren Epiphany" (== "The Epiphany Web Browser")
>>  >
>>  > Just writing "Webbläsare Epiphany", i.e. the literal equivalent of
>>  > "Epiphany Web Browser", would look extremely odd and incorrect in
>>  > Swedish. The definitive article (suffix) needs to be there in Swedish
>>  > if the name is there and we thus refer to a specific application.
>>  >
>>  > So, as always with localization, you just can't concatenate sentences
>>  > or pieces of sentences and get a result. It has to be translated as a
>>  > whole.
>>
>> So can you explain why this argument also applies to i18n("%1 - %2")?
>>  Is "Webbläsare - Epiphany" wrong?  We aren't trying to say "The
>>  Epiphany Web Browser" - we are trying to say Epiphany is a web
>>  browser.  (Ignoring the fact that browser is not the best term to
>>  use).  I don't see how this is the same as concatenation.
>
> "Webbläsare - Epiphany" or "Webbläsare (Epiphany)" is not wrong per
> se, it's just bad language style. I mean, in almost all cases you
> refer to browsers and other types of applications that belong to a
> specific category, and which you refer to by name, with a definite
> article. Especially when you are doing a listing of similar
> applications. This of course to some extent also applies to English.

So in a different message you said that "%1$s (%2$s)"  could work.
Can you please explain why this is fundamentally different from "%1$s
- %2$s"  ?  This seems to be what Vincent is suggesting.

Also, if we were to use parenthesis in English (and I don't think we
should) we would want it to read "Ephiphany (Web Browser)".

Thanks,
Jon